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Jim_Gunn
I need help encoding hdv footage in Cleaner XL1.5 for web delivery!
on Mar 16, 2007 at 6:45:03 am

I need help encoding hdv footage in Cleaner XL1.5 for web delivery! I am a fairly experienced editor who upgraded to hdv recently, using Premiere Pro 1.5.1 and Aspect HD to edit my hdv footage filmed with a Sony FX-1 1080i camera. This footage will only be used online, so I normally deinterlace as I export an edited movie from Premiere Pro and end up with a big CF AVI file ready to encode into web ready formats for the end users. Now I import that into Cleaner XL 1.5 ( just like I used to import the edited DV AVI of standard def movies) with the intention of batch encoding the movie into three different formats as dictated by my customer- WMV, Real and Quicktime at both full frame size and half frame size (Six different outputs in total).

Now the wmv files turn out fine using the NTSC Progressive 16 x 9 template- (progressive because remember I already deinterlaced the footage, and of course these movies are 16x9 frame size) . But I can't get Cleaner XL to encode to Quicktime at all (it gives me an error #223 I believe ) and the Real files come out distorted as if they were in 4x3 aspect ratio. I believe that the 1.33 pixel aspect ratio in the CF AVI file is screwing up the encodes to Real and Qucktime in Cleanner XL 1.5. I was able to mess with the settings in Real to trick the program and get the final output to look okay as if it is widescreen, but the Quicktime files I can do nothing with to make Cleaner XL work.

I have hundreds of dollars invested in Cleaner XL which I liked up to this point so I do not really want to try a different batch encoder, nor do I want to switch to Mac, nor do I want to output from within Premiere half a dozen times separately nor any other solutions that require me to just give up and spend a lot of money doing this a completely different workflow. Can anyone help?


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Danny2007
Re: I need help encoding hdv footage in Cleaner XL1.5 for web delivery!
on Mar 16, 2007 at 1:23:57 pm

What do you have your Input Profile set to?

Have you double-checked the Quicktime and Real exporter settings?

Do you have a Job Crop applied?

CleanerXL can be confusing at the best of times, not helped by such a badly designed interface.

It's a London thing.


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Jim_Gunn
Re: I need help encoding hdv footage in Cleaner XL1.5 for web delivery!
on Mar 16, 2007 at 4:48:34 pm

Input profile is NTSC Progressive 16x9
I double-checked and tried many different settings in Real and Quicktime output profiles.
There is no job crop applied.
I am familiar with Cleaner having used the Cleanner XL pc version for years, and the upgraded to ver. 1.5 is very similar.
I still can't figure out what is going on. I think it has to be the 1.33 pixel aspect ratio of the my edited CF AVI file screwing up the Real and Quicktime encodes, but that is pretty lame if this new version of Cleaner XL cannot handle that!


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Danny2007
Re: I need help encoding hdv footage in Cleaner XL1.5 for web delivery!
on Mar 16, 2007 at 5:07:01 pm

It's your input profile, HDV is not NTSC:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDV#Resolution_and_aspect_ratio



It's a London thing.


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Jim_Gunn
Re: I need help encoding hdv footage in Cleaner XL1.5 for web delivery!
on Mar 16, 2007 at 5:26:18 pm

What is option I should use for an input profile then??


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danny2007
Re: I need help encoding hdv footage in Cleaner XL1.5 for web delivery!
on Mar 17, 2007 at 12:20:14 am

NTSC Anamorphic
720x486
PAR 1.200

NTSC HDV
1440x1080
PAR 1.33




It's a London thing.


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Jim_Gunn
Re: I need help encoding hdv footage in Cleaner XL1.5 for web delivery!
on Mar 17, 2007 at 8:43:40 pm

Danny, I don't see those options in Cleaner XL 1.5. When I try to load an input profile the only folder options I have are CD or DVD, DV Camcorder or Expert. In none of these are there any profiles called HDV and certainly not HDV 1440 x 1080 input PAR 1.33 profiles! How di iI load or make a correct input profile?


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danny2007
Re: I need help encoding hdv footage in Cleaner XL1.5 for web delivery!
on Mar 17, 2007 at 11:24:17 pm

I don't use cleanerXL anymore and this is one reason I dropped it, it makes too many assumptions and it makes it hard to change default settings as well as it's reliance on (incorrect) input profile templates.

if you 'edit' an input profile by right clicking you have the ability to change the aspect ratio - cleanerxl uses a strange combination of numbers to derive that ratio, maybe they are used as standard somewhere but I've never seen them anywhere else, devide one by the other and you'll get the correct figure.

Cleaner has not been updated usefully in years and this is reflected in its inability to recognise HDV as well as other 'newer' formats.

Actually Windows is pretty crap out of the box with any kind of HD source other than WM, there's no native support for the likes of DVCPO HD or DVCPRO 50 even, despite Microsoft promising this as far back as XP Service pack 2.
Any Mac has this level of capibility out of the box.

I'm not in a position to give you the exact settings with which you should insert into your edited input profile to give you the correct outputs, but maybe Ben Waggoner, (the (ex) worlds greatest compressionist) would like to step in here. Ben was part of the team who created (Movie/Media) cleaner (pro) and then watched it get bastardised by Media 100 and the more so when it was sold to Autodesk, but he now works at Microsoft and is so much more of an expert in these matters than I, especially whe it comes to the psuedo flavors of HD such as HDV.

FWIW: The reaosn I now use OS X for all production work is largely due to the lack of any (direct) support from Microsoft for tools during the production/post production phase of video. Microsoft was, and is, too busy and concerned with the delivery aspect, owning the streaming space is, and was far more important than building a solid architecture for the like of us and that is why Apple have always seemingly always owned with Quicktime technology. Witness the massive migration to FCP which is largely due to issues like these and the fact that Apple OS/Quicktime and 3rd party tools just work. Nearly all of the time, Apple cerainly aint perfect!

That said, I highly rate CarbonCoder (Rhozet) or Procoder (Canopus) for this kind of work. Both are only available on Windows both are roughly the same, at this level.

It's a London thing.


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Jim_Gunn
Re: I need help encoding hdv footage in Cleaner XL1.5 for web delivery!
on Mar 17, 2007 at 11:51:59 pm

Danny, thank you for this info. I am going crazy with this! I have now over $725 invested in Cleaner XL including the XL version that I purchased a few years ago that handled batch encoding of standard definition videos just fine. I thought this new(ish) Cleaner XL 1.5 update would handle hdv which I now shoot almost exclusively in. But having just read the manual, I realize that never once is hdv or 1.33 pixel aspect ratio even mentioned! There has to be way to make this work for quicktime and Real as well as wmv which does work fine. I will look into editing the input profiles and query Ben W. if I can find him.

I am puzzled however by your recommendation of Procoder. I just now downloaded a 30 day demo version from their website and once again, there is no mention of hdv in the included help manual. And this demo will not accept my edited movie's full size AVI file (1440 x 1080 1.33 par) that I exported from Premiere Pro 1.51 as an input! So Procoder is no good or hdv either I guess? What now? Is there no software app that will allow me to batch encode to multiple formats the many videos that I film with my hdv camera and edit in Premiere?


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danny2007
Re: I need help encoding hdv footage in Cleaner XL1.5 for web delivery!
on Mar 18, 2007 at 12:11:17 am

Procoder/carboncoder has no problem with files of that resolution or indeed much higher resolutions. I'd look at the problem being your output from Premiere rather than a problem with Procoder.

Try dropping an unedited/unprocessed-by-premiere-export HDV clip into Procoder and see if it works.



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Jim_Gunn
Re: I need help encoding hdv footage in Cleaner XL1.5 for web delivery!
on Mar 18, 2007 at 12:18:10 am

Danny, thanks for your continued responses. But I tried to import one of the unedited avi clips that was captured by Premiere Pro 1.5.1 with Aspect HD and Procoder demo does not accept that either!


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danny2007
Re: I need help encoding hdv footage in Cleaner XL1.5 for web delivery!
on Mar 18, 2007 at 1:04:11 am

You might find the answer in the support pages of Cineforms website.

Maybe an upgrade to both Prem 2.0 and Aspect HD 4.0 would be wise?

http://www.cineform.com/products/FAQ.htm#Aspect1.

You'll hate me for saying this, but for a few hundred dollars more you could get a Mac that does what you want, out-of-the-box (and runs your (investment in) Windows apps).





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Jim_Gunn
Re: I need help encoding hdv footage in Cleaner XL1.5 for web delivery!
on Mar 18, 2007 at 1:51:14 am

Danny, I appreciate your help so far. I already have Aspect HD 4.0 working fine with Premiere Pro 1.5.1 for editing and outputting and encoding into wmv formats. It's Cleaner XL that cannot handle the exported HDV AVI files to make Real or Quicktime outputs and Procoder that cannot handle them at all! I find it hard to believe what you ssay that Procoder can handle these hdv files either as you suggest. There is no mention of it in their documentation either and it won't even accept my unedited hdv footage. I cannot imagine that upgrading to Premiere Pro 2.0 would make any substantial change in the output of an edited CF AVI file that would suddenly make them work in Cleaner or Procoder. Why would it? There has to be another simple explanation.

I have multiple pc workstations and literally thousands of dollars in pc software that would never run right on a Mac. Switching to Mac now would be impossible and I cannot afford it anyway right now.

Aren't there hundreds of people right here on this forum that are encoding hdv videos for the web with pcs? Someone else must have some idea, maybe I am missing the forest for the trees here? I am super frustrated and questioning everything I thought I knew. If I can't figure this out soon my newest clients will drop me and I am screwed professionally.


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danny2007
Re: I need help encoding hdv footage in Cleaner XL1.5 for web delivery!
on Mar 18, 2007 at 11:33:58 am

Jim,

I understand your frustration, but the fact of the matter is that Procoder can and does work well with HDV and has been able to for a long time:

http://www.canopus.com/products/EDIUSPro/speedencoderforHDV_closeup.php

http://www.videoguys.com/procoder.html
"HD and HDV Support
ProCoder 2.0 fully supports HD (720p and 1080i) and can transcode between HD and SD seamlessly. It can also encode HD resolutions and frame rates between formats, including MPEG, DivX, Windows Media 9 and QuickTime. ProCoder 2.0 is fully compliant with HDV MPEG Transport streams captured from HDV cameras and decks."

Just google for "encoding HDV in Procoder"

What I can't find anywhere is whether it supports the Cineform intermediate AVI wrapper but it' appears from your trial that it doesn't


Anyway, if you can ger cleanerXL to read your files in, and you can encode to Windows Media, then why not create a very high quality intermediate Windows Media file and use that to create the QuickTime & Real files? It's a long winded workaround, but at least it should work until you get to the bottom on the problems you are having.



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Rich Rubasch
Re: I need help encoding hdv footage in Cleaner XL1.5 for web delivery!
on Mar 18, 2007 at 4:22:34 pm

I'm jumping in late but I agree with Danny. It almost seems like the intermediary clip you are using is not going to work with cleaner. However, once you have that intermediary, you might be able to run a pretty quick transcode to a different format, like the WMV Danny suggested, and bring that into cleaner. sometimes it is knowing how your encoding software likes to work and then accommodating it in your workflow. Since Procoder does't like the intermediary you are using either, I think that's the place to start.

Rich Rubasch
Tilt Media


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Jim_Gunn
Re: I need help encoding hdv footage in Cleaner XL1.5 for web delivery!
on Mar 18, 2007 at 10:21:59 pm

Danny, thanks for the suggestion. As a matter of fact I tried import the Cineform AVIs I exported from Premiere Pro 1.5.1 with Aspect HD into the Procoder 1.25 trial demo and it did not accept them as a source, nor did the full version of Sorenson Squeeze 4.3 that a friend let me try. That is really, really disappointing. The last thing I need is another step in the process.

And I still feel that somehow I am lacking a critical piece of knowledge. I have asked ten people and gotten all kinds of answers. Assuming I get these to encode, should these resulting files as viewed in WIndows Media Player under File-Properties, should these videos be be 1440 x 1080 with a 16:9 aspect ratio like the CF AVI files say that they are in WMP or should they say 1920 x 1080 in WMP. I know that the 1.33 pixel aspect ratio of the 1440 x 1080 frame size is supposed to be equivalent to 1920 x 1080 frame size, but none of the resulting files ever look right or play right in Windows Media Player like the end users are going to be using. Even when I make wmvs in Cleaner XL from the CF AVIs they are the same width as my CF AVIs but taller and say that they a aspct ratio of "4:3 actual 1.71 displayed" in WMP.

I thought that I knew a lot about video encoding with SD vide, but I still have zero confidence that I know what I am doing here with hdv. There are so many settings in all the encoding apps. Assuming that my edited movies are 1440 x 1080 with a 1.33 par -which should I make these wmva nd reals and qts? 1440 x 1080 or 1920 x 1080? And should I specifically tell the encoding app to make the pixel aspect ratio 16:9 or as Cleaner XL calls it 40:33?


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danny2007
Re: I need help encoding hdv footage in Cleaner XL1.5 for web delivery!
on Mar 18, 2007 at 10:57:39 pm

What a mess.

One thing you'll have to come to terms with is that if three of the leading encoding applications can't work with your files, then there is 99% chance that something wrong with them.

I think that your problem lies in whatever is going on when Premiere/Aspect takes the HDV MPEG-2 and wraps it into an AVI. (Why does it fo this - AVI's are an unknown bastard file format at the best of times)

Don't rely on WMP to display (or report) anything properly, don't forget, it wasn't until XP SP2 that WMP could display even MPEG-1 properly!

I'm guessing that you need to tell cleanerXL that you have an HDV source of 1.33, you encode that to an intermediate high quality WM at 1920x1080 1.00 (1:1) PAR, then re-import that with an input profile of 1.00 (Square) PAR and encode to QT and Real

I'm guessing, as I don't use either Premiere, Aspect or CleanerXL. You can guess why!

See if you can get better reporting results from VLC, and maybe MPEG Streamclip can help you out of this mess.

MPEG streamclip - http://www.squared5.com/
VLC - http://www.videolan.org/vlc/




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Jim_Gunn
Re: I need help encoding hdv footage in Cleaner XL1.5 for web delivery!
on Mar 19, 2007 at 12:01:11 am

Danny:

Premiere with the Aspect HD plugin converts the hdv footage on a mini-DVtape when captured to an intermediate format using the AVI extension to make it easy, faster and less processor intensive to edit with. Everyone on line raves about this solution. I thought it was going to be ideal to use. The editing part works great. The issue is exporting and I guess that you are right- the CF AVI movie that I export looks great in WMP at 1440 x 1080 and properly displays to my eye at 16:9 (since the par is 1.33). But this pixel aspect ratio means that no 3rd party encoding apps except for Cleaner XL can use it properly encode all the other finished formats I need. They all choke on either the AVI format or the 1.33 par or both.

Of course I am incensed now. How can this be? What a lack of foresight on Cineform's part! You suggest that I make two intermediate formats, and what you said makes sense but I wonder if it would be possible to save one step and just export directly from P Pro the hi quality 1920 x 100 wmv in a square pixel aspect ratio instead of to an 1.33 par 1440 x 1080 avi first and then use that 1920 x 1080 wmv to encode to a 1920 x 1080 Real and Quicktime file and smaller versions


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Rich Rubasch
Re: I need help encoding hdv footage in Cleaner XL1.5 for web delivery!
on Mar 19, 2007 at 4:00:56 pm

wonder if it would be possible to save one step and just export directly from P Pro the hi quality 1920 x 100 wmv in a square pixel aspect ratio instead of to an 1.33 par 1440 x 1080 avi first and then use that 1920 x 1080 wmv to encode to a 1920 x 1080 Real and Quicktime file and smaller versions


That could also work...it is like making an acceptable intermediary. I do this many times through AfterEffects. I bring the file there and scale it, deinterlace etc to the size I want to send to the encoder. It is usually compressed, like PhotoJpeg etc, so it is easy to save etc. Then it goes to the encoder. Do this a lot.

Rich Rubasch
Tilt Media


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nocturnalsteve
Re: I need help encoding hdv footage in Cleaner XL1.5 for web delivery!
on Apr 3, 2007 at 11:31:01 am

I am experiencing exactly the same problems, albeit from a PAL perspective?

So is there any work around in getting decent web HD movies from an Aspect HD timeline?

I have created a trailer that I now want to distribute online in the same way that Apple host their HD trailers - such as this one: http://www.apple.com/trailers/fox_atomic/28weekslater/

Has anyone out there got a detailed workflow or can help me out here as im sure others would like to host their work in the same manner as the link supplied using the same methods.

The footage was captured in 1080i HDV on a Sony FX1, now have a Aspect HDV 1080i timeline in Premier Pro approx 1min30 long.


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Ben Waggoner
Re: I need help encoding hdv footage in Cleaner XL1.5 for web delivery!
on Apr 14, 2007 at 4:11:32 pm

The ProCoder demo verison is ancinet at this point, and predates HDV. The current released version does HDV just fine.

I honestly don't know if I even have a copy of Cleaner XL installed anywhere anymore. Other tools have long since replaced it as my go-to products. My current suite of general compression tools are ProCoder/Carbon, Squeeze, and Episode. Although I only wind up doing the hard stuff these days, so a sad portion of my work winds up being in After Effects, VirtualDub, and WMcmd.vbs :).

Also, you're missing a great upgrade in Premiere Pro 2.0 from 1.5.1.

My Book: http://www.benwaggoner.com/books.htm
Squeeze and ProCoder tutorials: http://www.classondemand.net/benwaggoner/
Compression Class at Stanford: http://www.digitalmediaacademy.org/compression.html


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