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ryanservant
Discreet cleaner 6 does it support HDV? Help me compress
on Feb 22, 2006 at 11:47:24 pm

I just downloaded a trial of discreet and when I drag and drop a HDV clip that I have captured using FCP it is not recognized at all. Everything works peachy with a DV clip. I am shooting hours of sports games in HDV and need to upload the videos to the web. They would like the frame size 320X240 or bigger. Each clip is going to be 30 min long. Should I compress right from the HDV clip or should I use the downconverted dv clip from my firestore that was created at the same time as my HDV tape. So far my compression of my Dv material looks like crap and ends up being around 550 mb. Is 550mb a size that I am going to have if they want the frame to be so big on the website? My best encode was 400X300 medium quality using sorenson 3 quicktime 1000kb rate. I need the genius of the compression gods...if you are reading this you may be one...to lend me some knowledge.

Ryan




G5
xserve 2.5 TB
FCP HD
2 gigs ram
Used to be Kona Hd...Now its Decklink HD pro



Ryan Servant
AirSeaLand Productions
http://www.airsealand.com
718-626-2646


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Craig Seeman
Re: Discreet cleaner 6 does it support HDV? Help me compress
on Feb 23, 2006 at 2:29:29 am

Cleaner 6 or 6.5? 6 is a few years old and predates HDV. 6.5 might work but I haven't tried it with HDV.
Have you tried using Compressor 2? Since FCP can handle HDV I would suspect Compressor 2 can also. Compressor doesn't do 2 pass VBR Sorenson Pro though (I wouldn't use Sorenson standard at all . . . yuch!). Compressor does very nice H.264 which might do your HDV source justice. The alternative might be to use Sorenson Squeeze 4.3 since it includes Sorenson Pro and does good MPEG4 (better than Compressor IMHO).


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ryanservant
Re: Discreet cleaner 6 does it support HDV? Help me compress
on Feb 23, 2006 at 2:27:15 pm

I am woried that the end user is not the type to be updating the quicktime on thier...mostly PC's....What about the HDV to WMV 9 workflow....have you had success with that using flip for mac with HDV?

Ryan

G5
xserve 2.5 TB
FCP HD
2 gigs ram
Used to be Kona Hd...Now its Decklink HD pro



Ryan Servant
AirSeaLand Productions
http://www.airsealand.com
718-626-2646


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Craig Seeman
Re: Discreet cleaner 6 does it support HDV? Help me compress
on Feb 23, 2006 at 3:28:16 pm

HDV to WMV with Flip4Mac works fine. Key to remember is that HDV is already heavily compressed compared to HDCAM so I'd test a section with dissolves for example to see how the transitions hold up. If you're editing in HDV, those dissolves are more or less like rendering a "fast action" sequence in HDV and we know how HDV loves fast action.


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ryanservant
Re: Discreet cleaner 6 does it support HDV? Help me compress
on Feb 23, 2006 at 3:52:46 pm

This isn't really an edit per se. It will be a whole high school game, start to finish. I was going to go with the firstore FS-4 to help me in elimating 500 hours of capture time, I am shooting a lot of high school games....but now I just found out that firestore and FCP don't really mesh yet. The firestore is going to give me a .m2t file. Is there a way to convert this .m2t file into a nice looking web file?

Ryan

G5
xserve 2.5 TB
FCP HD
2 gigs ram
Used to be Kona Hd...Now its Decklink HD pro



Ryan Servant
AirSeaLand Productions
http://www.airsealand.com
718-626-2646


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Charles Simonson
Re: Discreet cleaner 6 does it support HDV? Help me compress
on Feb 23, 2006 at 10:05:17 pm

MPEG StreamClip should be your defacto tool for this. I wouldn't necessarily use it to compress with, but it is great for converting HD MPEGs with to more suitable and friendly QT editing formats. Also, there is DiVA from the 3ivx folks which works very well and is incredibly fast.



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Charles Simonson
Re: Discreet cleaner 6 does it support HDV? Help me compress
on Feb 23, 2006 at 10:02:24 pm

For your web rates at 320x240, I would say you could get the following encoded data rates and still be very pleased with the outcome: H.264 Main Profile = 325kbps; WMV9 Advanced Profile = 450kbps; MPEG-4 Part 2 Simple Profile = 650kbps. For H.264, you have about 75kbps lower that you can go before quality really starts to get ugly; for WMV, you have about 125kbps; for MPEG-4, about 100kbps. Also, around these rates and considering it is for the web, I would seriously give thought to halving the frame rate of the encode. There could be great encoding benefit in going from 60 or 30 fps to 15fps or from 24fps to 12fps.



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Craig Seeman
Re: Discreet cleaner 6 does it support HDV? Help me compress
on Feb 24, 2006 at 7:06:33 am

It's an aesthetic choice but I'm not a fan of cutting the frame rate. Ryan is doing sports and shooting on HDV. I'm not sure I'd want to show an action sport like footbal at 15fps unless he suspects people will have PCs that will be "stressed" on the decode side. I also think H.264 (needs QT7) and WMV 9 Advanced Profile (does not work with WMP9 on Macs I believe nor with Flip4Mac yet) may hurt broad reach if that's his intent (although they do look very nice).


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Charles Simonson
Re: Discreet cleaner 6 does it support HDV? Help me compress
on Feb 24, 2006 at 3:58:21 pm

At the bit rates, size, overall length of the video he is shooting for, and the fact that this is for web distribution, halving the frame rate is a suitable option, even for sports IMO. Of course, he doesn't need to use H.264 or WMV9 AP, but then he will need to almost double his target bit rate for other formats. Obviously its a tradeoff between quality and compatibility. And halving the frame rate could benefit in two ways; one method would be to apply the same total bits to less numbers of frames, resulting in better quality; the other method would be to apply the same rate of bits to less numbers of frames, resulting in the same quality with half the final file size. Also, it is here where using an intelligent encoder that can produce a variable frame rate at half the source (rather than a fixed-hard number frame rate from the source) would be more beneficial for the eye.

When you're talking about progressive downloading of a 500MB file, other options that you wouldn't normally consider should be taken into account to get that file as small as possible. As a user, when viewing something at 320x240 (on a computer inside a web browser; if this whole project is for iPod or something, then that would be different and I wouldn't change the fps), I would care less about whether the fps is full or half the original, and a whole lot more on whether the file is 250MB or 500MB. Particularly, being a sport video, it would be very important to me to be able to scroll around the video as soon as possible, as I am sure there is plenty that went on in the game that the average viewer won't care about. Most will only likely care about their son's tackle or touchdown reception. 250MB sure does download a lot quicker than 500MB.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Discreet cleaner 6 does it support HDV? Help me compress
on Feb 24, 2006 at 5:03:49 pm

Very intersting points Charles.

H.264 is great when it comes to quality vs data rate and file size but needs QT7 (just restating since I think we're in agreement here).
I'm a little less convinced regarding WMV9 AP though. Do you really find a significant difference between WMV9 "standard" (main) and WMV9 AP in quality vs data rate and file size? If so can you subjectively quantify as you've done with the above codec?

"Intelligent Encoder" capable of variable frame rate. Haven't seen that in software on the Mac side? Anybody doing this in software at all? This could resolve many issues regarding frame rate used.

File size is a major factor as you point out in progressive download. I would think one would break it up into smaller chuncks though. For football it could be Quarters (might still be large) or down series which would really give the user flexibility and smaller file sizes.

I also don't think cutting the frame rate in half cuts the file size in half. The encoder may have to do "more work" since the change in movement from frame to frame is now greater (especially for sports). Actually this is why the "intelligent encoder" could be significant. In sports like football there are moments where there is actually little motion (huddles, time at line of scrimmage for example).


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ryanservant
Re: Discreet cleaner 6 does it support HDV? Help me compress
on Feb 24, 2006 at 8:37:46 pm

Do you know how happy I am that you guys are helping me out with this.....Ok so the cleaner download I tried doesnt like HDv...the sorenson squeeze demo i just download likes it as an input but after it compresses it I get a blank file. I tried WMV and quicktime. The end user is going to be college coaches watching the videos for recruiting purposes....if it was for mom and pop I would prob lower the frame rate.....i really need as high of quality as possible...doesnt everyone say that? They will be viewing on the browser and not on any portable devices. I think I am going to buy 3 of the quad G5's to speed up whatever process I am going to pick to help out in export time. I will be dealling with 1000 games at 30 min each. The web site devolpment company doesnt know much about video at all....the demo that they showed the client of a video on the website was done by an animator bringing in a video file to flash. We had nothing to do with the project when this happened and I have no details about that. I am trying to find out if they intend to bring all 1000 files into flash or If I will be encoding the finished file myself...if they want their animator to compress it with flash I am going to send him huge files on external drives and let him deal with it. I am worried it won't be that easy...it never is....So I know that from FCP I can export a WMV from my HDV sequence. I just don't know what will happen to the end user if the file is huge....will they be starring at a blank screen for 10 minutes as it loads up???



G5
xserve 2.5 TB
FCP HD
2 gigs ram
Used to be Kona Hd...Now its Decklink HD pro



Ryan Servant
AirSeaLand Productions
http://www.airsealand.com
718-626-2646


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Charles Simonson
Re: Discreet cleaner 6 does it support HDV? Help me compress
on Feb 24, 2006 at 9:05:48 pm

Do you really find a significant difference between WMV9 "standard" (main) and WMV9 AP in quality vs data rate and file size?
Not so much with the WMVA fourcc (at least not with MS's encoder), but definitely when using the WVC1 fourcc will you see many advantages to the quality of an encode at low bit rates compared to the main profile options.

"Intelligent Encoder" capable of variable frame rate. Haven't seen that in software on the Mac side?
Compression Master can do half frame rate variable conversions depending on the frame rate for a particular time. I think Cleaner used to be able to do this as well, although I am not certain. Squeeze possibly can too.

I also don't think cutting the frame rate in half cuts the file size in half. The encoder may have to do "more work" since the change in movement from frame to frame is now greater (especially for sports).
Technically, for most encoders, if you leave the settings the same, it will not cut the file size in half, that is correct. What it will do is provide better end quality per frame than a full frame rate encode would receive at the same file size. However, changing the frame rate to something lower allows you to encode at a much lower target bit rate, because you need many less bits per second, thus giving you a much smaller file size.



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ryanservant
Re: Discreet cleaner 6 does it support HDV? Help me compress
on Feb 24, 2006 at 9:28:43 pm

Ok.....now we're getting into stuff that im lost on.....I just did a nice little export from FCP to WMV. My settings were: WMV 9 standard, 2 pass vbr, quality 100%, 1000 bit rate, lower field first for input, 480X270 size, progressive output....and it looks good to me. It is 3.8 MB for 30 seconds...which means my 500 mb file est was off. So what is going to happen to a 300 mb file that plays from the web....will it take long to load....does it matter if my web site devoloper does something to the file to make it stream or something? ( i have no clue about streaming )

Ryan



G5
xserve 2.5 TB
FCP HD
2 gigs ram
Used to be Kona Hd...Now its Decklink HD pro



Ryan Servant
AirSeaLand Productions
http://www.airsealand.com
718-626-2646


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Craig Seeman
Re: Discreet cleaner 6 does it support HDV? Help me compress
on Feb 24, 2006 at 10:32:50 pm

I think you can drop the Quality to Zero doing 2 pass VBR. Give it a test on 30 seconds and see if you see any difference.

I'm curious what kind of internet connections the coaches will have. 1000kbps actually is ok in NYC metro but it could be an issue in areas where they only have slower DSL, satellite or equivalent. You might have to think about cutting the frame size a bit and you can cut the data rate with that.

Are you looking to keep these as complete 30minute duration files? If so buffer time can certainly be a factor on progressive download.

Going to a streaming server might be worth it but that does mean expense and it does mean mms or rtsp, etc rather than http. You'd then need to use CBR rather than VBR and that can have impact on quality especially with motion. You might want to try a 2 Pass CBR encode and see how you feel about the look. Streaming can give the viewer the ability to "skip" around but the file isn't downloaded into the user's cache.

There's also the Quicktime Player vs the Windows Media Player interface. With progressive download I find it easier to "skip" back and forth (review a play again) and jog frame by frame in Quicktime Player.

[ryanservant] "My settings were: WMV 9 standard, 2 pass vbr, quality 100%, 1000 bit rate, lower field first for input, 480X270 size, progressive output....and it looks good to me. It is 3.8 MB for 30 seconds...which means my 500 mb file est was off. So what is going to happen to a 300 mb file that plays from the web....will it take long to load....does it matter if my web site devoloper does something to the file to make it stream or something? ( i have no clue about streaming )"



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ryanservant
Re: Discreet cleaner 6 does it support HDV? Help me compress
on Feb 24, 2006 at 10:42:13 pm

Quality to zero? I will try that next i guess.....what bit rate would you go down to? Also I need to keep that frame size...they want it big. I am not sure about the streaming server thing..I will ask web company mon morn....

G5
xserve 2.5 TB
FCP HD
2 gigs ram
Used to be Kona Hd...Now its Decklink HD pro



Ryan Servant
AirSeaLand Productions
http://www.airsealand.com
718-626-2646


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ryanservant
Re: Discreet cleaner 6 does it support HDV? Help me compress
on Feb 24, 2006 at 10:58:22 pm

I have to get the full version of flip 4 mac so I can really see how a larger file exports....right now I am watching 30 sec clips....I also want to see what my export time will be for a 30 min hdv clip to wmv hd. I am hoping it will be super fast on the quad g5....i am going to try and have promax do a test for me before i start buying up all this gear.

Ryan

G5
xserve 2.5 TB
FCP HD
2 gigs ram
Used to be Kona Hd...Now its Decklink HD pro



Ryan Servant
AirSeaLand Productions
http://www.airsealand.com
718-626-2646


Return to posts index

Craig Seeman
Re: Discreet cleaner 6 does it support HDV? Help me compress
on Feb 24, 2006 at 11:30:28 pm

Two answers in one place for those trying to follow this.

Yes do try setting Quality to Zero.

I can understand the need for a large frame size for what the coaches need to see. See if you can drop it to 800kbps.

I am thinking that if you're doing progressive download you might try Quicktime H.264. The coaches may like the frame by frame jog in the Quicktime player. As Charles points out H.264 will give you great quality at lower bit rates (and therefore smaller file sizes). This does mean being able to "push" QT7 and they'll have to have fairly "fast" computers for the decode demands H.264 puts on the system.

If the coaches want this kind of size, detail, control they you should stress the importance of "pushing" H.264. They can't be hung by IT departments who refuse to allow QT7 or and update to QT7 though. You would provide a big fat obvious link to QT7 download and make it clear they need it. It they may not be happy with the results using a 6 year old cheap Windows box either.

I'm wondering how you're finding HDV and handling fast motion too. Frame by frame jog may not be worth it. I have this vision of a coach wanting to jog through frame by frame to see how the receive pulls in a bullet pass into the flats. If HDV makes the motion of the ball and the receiver's hands blurry . . . The Quicktime controllor can make it easy for them to go back and review a play over again though on a progressive download.

Flip4Mac 2.0.x has added a "complexity" controll which can speed encode (at quality price though) although there's an "issue" with 2 pass VBR. I believe they're going to work on speeding the encode on the next release of export. Another "hook" I'd like to see is being able to use "distributive rendering" in Compressor.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Discreet cleaner 6 does it support HDV? Help me compress
on Feb 24, 2006 at 11:06:48 pm

[Charles Simonson] ""Intelligent Encoder" capable of variable frame rate. Haven't seen that in software on the Mac side?
Compression Master can do half frame rate variable conversions depending on the frame rate for a particular time. I think Cleaner used to be able to do this as well, although I am not certain. Squeeze possibly can too."


Please do explain. I've used all three and don't see it or maybe I'm not looking at it the way you are. I'd want to set a "motion" or "delta" threshold so that when the amount of change from frame to frame drops below a point, the frame rate would drop.

I'd want to talk more about WMV9 AP and WVC1 but that might be a topic for another thread.

I see your point about being able to lower the data rate (and thus the file size still further) also in regards to cutting the frame rate. I'm stuck in my aesthetic bias against dropping the frame rate in all but "talking head" type content with little motion and it even bothers me there although that's "a corner I'm willing to cut."



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