FORUMS: list search recent posts

What setting to shoot a marathon race ?

COW Forums : Adobe After Effects

<< PREVIOUS   •   FAQ   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
Jacques Davis
What setting to shoot a marathon race ?
on Apr 7, 2010 at 7:01:36 am

I shoot with a canon HV20.I am going to shoot a marathon race. My HV20 will be on a tripod.The racers are going to run from the left to the right. they will fill the screen. upon forecast weather it should be a bright little sunny morning. I generally shoot progressive and cinemode but I am afraid to get a stutter image as the racers run fast .50i will sure smooth the movement but I will lose in sharpness.
First question: in any case what camera shutter do you suggest.
second question:
in AE what is the best: Progressive shooting with some kind of motion blur or 50i with a lot of sharpness


Return to posts index

Tudor Jelescu
Re: What setting to shoot a marathon race ?
on Apr 7, 2010 at 9:45:32 am

I'll start with the second question:
Progressive for sure- even if you shoot 50i you will need to deinterlace for any roto work, so you might as well get the progressive frames from the start.
I do not personally like to use any camera sharpness/filters- just straight capture, no bells and whistles.
So I guess for the first question the answer is shoot progressive.
In case you want some more camera advice there's a pretty big forum:
http://www.hv20.com/


Return to posts index

Alperen T. Ayhan
Re: What setting to shoot a marathon race ?
on Apr 7, 2010 at 9:55:07 am

that's just in my opinion;

1-) Shutter speed should be 60 or 100 (also you may choose 50 too..)
2-) It's up to result which you want.. So will it be a commercial or like home movies? Because AE can fix both and give best result.. It has wide range ability of compositing. I think you should shoot with sharp settings, progressive or 50i it doesn't matter. You can add motion blur and make color corrections etc. while postproducing... Just be sure you catch the right pictures clearly :)

Alperen T. AYHAN
http://www.sinamasal.com
Always cinema...


Return to posts index


Dave LaRonde
Re: What setting to shoot a marathon race ?
on Apr 7, 2010 at 3:42:25 pm

[Jacques Davis] "First question: in any case what camera shutter do you suggest. "

Perhaps I'm not as clairvoyant as the others. Here's MY first question: what are you going to DO with the footage.. what are you expected to deliver?

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


Return to posts index

Jacques Davis
Re: What setting to shoot a marathon race ?
on Apr 7, 2010 at 4:14:12 pm

Think of my work as a picture:

I will shoot one hour of marathon without moving my camera.
outside the studder problem my movie will be clean, no black crush, no
overexposed white. That I know how to do.

Then I will grade my movie; plain color, no fancy stuff

no editing.

Then the movie will play , endlessly, from a mediaplayer ( 1080p HDMI )
on a 23" lcd screen ( samsung f2380 to be precise).

that's all !

I just want a clean picture.



Return to posts index

Dave LaRonde
Re: What setting to shoot a marathon race ?
on Apr 7, 2010 at 4:42:53 pm

I presume your camera is capable of shooting 1080 25p.... as opposed to 1025pN, which only the most expensive cameras are capable of doing. If you shoot it that way, you will have no problems whatsover doing what you seek.

Just make sure that you convert the footage to a codec that uses intraframe compression BEFORE you import it into AE. Here's why:

Dave's Stock Answer #1:

If the footage you imported into AE is any kind of the following -- footage in an HDV acquisition codec, MPEG1, MPEG2, AVCHD, mp4, mts, m2t, H.261 or H.264 -- you need to convert it to a different codec.

These kinds of footage use temporal, or interframe compression. They have keyframes at regular intervals, containing complete frame information. However, the frames in between do NOT have complete information. Interframe codecs toss out duplicated information.

In order to maintain peak rendering efficiency, AE needs complete information for each and every frame. But because these kinds of footage contain only partial information, AE freaks out, resulting in a wide variety of problems.


Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


Return to posts index


Jacques Davis
Re: What setting to shoot a marathon race ?
on Apr 7, 2010 at 5:01:06 pm

I capture from a canon hv20 hdmi port to a blackmagic intensity.
I code apple prores ( for apple color )

I wondered if i would get somewhere by:

use a fast shutter to have a sharp picture
use some kind of after effects filter to smooth only part of the picture which have a big difference between two frames ( legs, feet, arms )

I am a long time user of ae ( cosa after effects ) but I mostly use it to compose and not for effects ...

google me

and thanks, I like your posts


Return to posts index

Dave LaRonde
Re: What setting to shoot a marathon race ?
on Apr 7, 2010 at 5:09:04 pm

Here's an idea: run a test, for heaven's sake! How are we supposed to know what you like?

Shoot yourself running past the camera at various shutter settings, and see which one YOU like best. How long can it take?

Now go get busy, run some tests, and get the look you want.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


Return to posts index

Jacques Davis
Re: What setting to shoot a marathon race ?
on Apr 7, 2010 at 5:20:25 pm

i did tenth of them ... I am not happy yet


Return to posts index


Dave LaRonde
Re: What setting to shoot a marathon race ?
on Apr 7, 2010 at 5:33:33 pm

[Jacques Davis] "...i did tenth of them ... I am not happy yet..."

Then you either have to test more shutter settings or give up on the notion of using a shutter AT ALL.

Since this is an After Effects forum and not a motion photography forum, any shutter settings we would recommend would be the most frequently-used ones, and are probably the ones you've tested and rejected.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


Return to posts index

Jacques Davis
Re: What setting to shoot a marathon race ?
on Apr 7, 2010 at 5:37:24 pm

no idea with ae and some kind of motion blur


Return to posts index

Dave LaRonde
Re: What setting to shoot a marathon race ?
on Apr 7, 2010 at 5:54:20 pm

[Jacques Davis] "no idea with ae and some kind of motion blur"

Do you want to use AE to "fix" portions of 25p video shot using a shutter? Do you know how difficult that is?

What if the motion of a person's arms offend you? Are you prepared to rotoscope the arm and animate the Force Motion blur effect, almost on a frame-by-frame basis, as he passes through the frame? What if another runner passes between the offending runner and the camera? Are you now prepared to rotoscope both runners to make a convincing effect? Are you prepared to do this throughout the hour's worth of footage you'll have?

Are you an accomplished roto artist? If the answer is no, simply shoot with no shutter and be done with it. Your footage will look fine. It will be nice and sharp, and the parts that are in motion -- the runners, that is -- will have motion blur proportionate to the speed of their motion.

I believe that is what you seek in the first place.




Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


Return to posts index


Jacques Davis
Re: What setting to shoot a marathon race ?
on Apr 7, 2010 at 10:47:12 pm

let's go farther ... my camera is going to be steady on a tripod. I remember when I used ultimatte long time ago I was always shooting my empty blue screen before the real shooting so my chromakey was clean.

So what if i shoot the landscape without the runners ; then I use this still to isolate the runners then I motion blur the difference between frame 1 and frame 2 then between frame 2 and frame 3 and so on ?

what do you think ?


Return to posts index

Joe Moya
Re: What setting to shoot a marathon race ?
on Apr 7, 2010 at 11:06:11 pm

Not going to work... unless you can rotoscope the runners out of their background... and, there is no way you can successfully do that with a reasonable sort of of time.

The runners are not running in front of a blue screen. Therefore, you can not key out the runners... the only option is to roto each runner... and that would be crazy to even attempt... specially if you include arm and leg movements.

If I read your post correctly, your idea is bad.


Return to posts index

Joe Moya
Re: What setting to shoot a marathon race ?
on Apr 7, 2010 at 7:55:37 pm

What you going to shoot is not going to be easy..specially if you are working in a crowd and have limited shot angles.

I strongly suggest you shoot some sample video AT THE SAME TIME OF THE DAY YOU WILL BE DOING THE ACTUAL SHOOT:

Here are a few thing you need or need to know:

You will want to have available:

2x ND lens filter and wide angle lens.

You will most likely want to shoot with..:

a high shutter speed (maybe)... A LOT DEPENDS UPONA WHERE THE SUN IS LOCATED relative to the camera and the runners. A shutter speed of 500 or greater may work if you are facing directly into rising sun with an ND filter. A lower shutter speed may work if you have the sun to your back... but, you may have shadows that block the runners faces because of hats (...and, too low of shutter speed could cause blur.).

Blur is not going to be your enemy IF you adjust the position of you camera relative to the runners and the light source (i.e., high iso's helps prevents blur). However, avoiding excessive shadowing is VERY tricky... blur will not be a problem IF you get the lighting and direction of lighting relative to the camera down correctly. There are gazillian different ways to shoot what you want... but, only a few are the best way to shoot the scene. Trial and error with similar conditions will be the ONLY effective way to find the best combination.

And... finally, just when you figured out the perfect combo... over a short period of time... the sun angle will change and light intensity changes and... wham... things are no longer perfect and you need to change your settings - again.


Return to posts index


Jacques Davis
Re: What setting to shoot a marathon race ?
on Apr 7, 2010 at 10:27:50 pm

it's worst then you think and it's easier; worst because I shoot ten cameras together ( google me) for the rest it's easier: it will be 9 am when I start shooting and 10.15 when I stop. the sun will be low and will only change few degrees( astronomie calculation ).I have no problem to control my light, and exposure.

All I know is that around 1/50 to 1/100 I have too much blur and around 1/250 it start to studder ...

Thanks anyway for your time


Return to posts index

Joe Moya
Re: What setting to shoot a marathon race ?
on Apr 7, 2010 at 11:02:56 pm

Stutter...?

I've shot many a marathon and ironman triathlon and never got a stutter with a Canon HV20/30/40...

I don't know what you mean by stutter?


Return to posts index

Jacques Davis
Re: What setting to shoot a marathon race ?
on Apr 8, 2010 at 6:42:16 am

studder, not stutter sorry;

Did you shot the runners coming forward you, or 3/4 or parallel to to the camera frame going from the left to the right ?


how did you set up your camera ? interlaced or progressive; cinemode or tv; shutter at 1/50 or 1/120 ? ...


Return to posts index


Joe Moya
Re: What setting to shoot a marathon race ?
on Apr 8, 2010 at 2:09:04 pm

"Did you shot the runners coming forward you, or 3/4 or parallel to to the camera frame going from the left to the right ?"

Yes.... to all. I don't think you understand... from what angle you shoot the runners depends upon the lighting... and, using the correct angle of light to the camera takes two actions:
1) changing the iso to accomodate for the amount of light
2) adding or removing any filters to help with lighting.

Once you have the lighting correct, there will not be any blurring because you have the iso matched to the light needed to remove shadows and prevent blurring.

If you get the shutter speed (i.e., iso) correct relative to the angle of the light you need for the shot... then, every thing will work.... there will be no blurring and shadows will not hide faces.

"how did you set up your camera ? interlaced or progressive; cinemode or tv; shutter at 1/50 or 1/120 ? ... "

There is NO ONE way to set up the camera... I set up the camera to match the conditions. Personally, I use 30p (or 24p for PAL users)since it is easier to post to the internet... I will sometimes rotate throught the camera presets (ex. cinemode, tv, bright light, etc) to see they work, but more frequently I have to manually set the iso and/or gain. Your typically going to get your best shots if you manual set the camera (...WHICH MEANS YOU HAVE TO GO OUT AND TEST THE CAMERA TO SEE WHAT SHOOTS BEST DURING THE SAME TIME OF DAY). There is no getting around going out and using the camera until you get an idea as to how manual set your camera for different lighting enviroments. 1/50 1/120 1/250 1/500... heck - they ALL can work... depends upon the lighting enviroment, position of camera and light source and if you are using filters.

However, chances are you will want to use at least 1/50 but most likely 1/100 or higher to prevent blurring... and, I still don't know why your camera studders... unless there is something wrong with it. Maybe, ... by studder... you mean you are getting a ghosting effect (sometimes confused with blurring). If you are getting this "ghosting", it is because you are shooting at too low of an iso (probably below 1/100 or 1/50) AND/OR too much light. Like I mentioned earlier... if you get the correct amount of light into the camera with the correct iso and direction of the shot relative to the sunlight and intensity of the sunlight... you will not have any blurring or ghosting. THERE IS NO ONE BEST WAY TO SET UP THE CAMERA SETTINGS.

All that being said, let me use two extreme examples of how you might set up your camera...

EXTREME bright light with camera facing the sun and runners in between the camera and the sun: I would probably shoot at 1/250 or 1/500 with a 2x or 4x ND filter. At this speed you will not have ANY blurring... I can even see the individual spokes of bike at these ISO speeds.
DARK SHADDOWs with pre-sun rise lighting with camera facing the subject and ligting behind the camera: I would probably shoot at 1/50 or 1/100 (depending if on the direction of the runners... if they are running past the camera instead of toward the camera, I would use the higher iso) with no ND filter.

There are a dozen or so variations of these to combinations... and, the only way you are going to find out what works best to go out and shoot during the same time of day you plan on shooting the marathon.


Return to posts index

Joe Moya
Re: What setting to shoot a marathon race ?
on Apr 7, 2010 at 4:55:00 pm

A few things you need to adjust for when shooting...

... first it is not the movement of the runners that will most likely give you problems...

However, you will have to contend with sun light and direction of sun light issues. Most races start early in the morning and you might have direct sunlight to deal with.

Secondly, shadows caused by caps worn by most runners ...REALLY... messes with how much light you need in order to effectively show the faces (assuming that is a priority).

Placement of the camera relative to the runners and the sun is crucial to make the shot work. And... one of the problems is that sun light intensity and direction changes the most in the early hours of the day (i.e., sunrise). So... camera settings that might work for the first 20-30 mins. will not likely work in the next 20-30 mins. of shooting time.

Side note: Using various Neutral Density Filters will help A Lot in dealing with lighting and ISO setting issues. I would suggest you take at least one ND filter and it would also be best to learn how use the ND filter and bright light before you shoot the marathon (assuming you haven't used a ND filter before).


Return to posts index

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
© 2017 CreativeCOW.net All Rights Reserved
[TOP]