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Jitter on certain layers

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Nick Vaka
Jitter on certain layers
on Mar 14, 2019 at 3:12:18 pm
Last Edited By Nick Vaka on Mar 14, 2019 at 3:13:55 pm

Hello Creative COW,

It has been a LONG time since I've posted but I'm frankly out of ideas and I've had great luck seeking advice here in the past.

In sum, I have a team working on a big project that has numerous timeline animations like the one I'm asking about here, and they all have certain graphics that are jittering slightly as they slide across the screen. Here is an example



.

The graphics jittering in this shot are the fridge, the soup, and the black borders of the frozen food isle at the end. I've been working on the fridge layer. First, some project details.

Framerate: 29.97
3D layers with 3D Camera parented to null object sliding across the comp. Ease in/out applied to the 2-keyframe camera animation
Basic 3D renderer
No lights
Tint applied to the layer
Rendering as ProRes422 HQ
The fridge layer is a PSD with no vector smart objects. The flicker happens if I solo the layer too
Fridge is precomposed on the timeline

Here's the short list of what I've tried to so far. Everything has resulted in the same flicker, so I think it is the file.

  • Directional blur (horizontal and then vertical)
  • Fast blur (.7)
  • Unnested the layers and adding them directly to the timeline
  • Posterized the edges (Photoshop)
  • Changed the color profile
  • Removed all effects
  • Copied the layer and camera to a new composition
  • Made every comp a uniform frame rate using RD_Compsetter
  • Changed the framerate to 30 FPS
  • Made the fridge 2D and moved it across the screen in a new composition
  • Changed the fridge layers position on the Z Axis
  • Ensured PAR was consistent
  • Rendered as drop frame & non drop frame
  • Rendered as a PNG sequence and re-output to ensure it wasn't the render itself
  • Made all layers in fridge 3D (the base was 2D before)
  • Ensured nothing sits on the same position on the Z axis


The file flickers on the other guy's machine too, but he isn't noticing it. The client is.

Any and all help is greatly appreciated. Client has been pretty patient, but the time we've spent troubleshooting this has got to be wearing on them

Nick Vaka
Motion Graphics & Animation
http://www.nickvaka.com


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Steve Bentley
Re: Jitter on certain layers
on Mar 14, 2019 at 4:41:39 pm

Does it have to be 3D? Everything I see there could just be done with fake parallax shift in 2D.
I thought it might be something with the prores but your timer slider on the bottom is really clean.
I didn't see AE's built in motion blur in the list. Is that turned on for that layer? and in the render settings?
The fridge is a different quality than the other graphics, almost as if its been blown up in a sub comp. Is the move happening in a sub comp or are there two cameras (one in the outer an one in the inner) competing?



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Nick Vaka
Re: Jitter on certain layers
on Mar 14, 2019 at 5:24:54 pm

Thanks for the reply here.

The comp doesn't need to be in 2D, but putting the fridge in a 2D comp as a 2D layer by itself isn't fixing the issue.

Built in motion blur was on and I turned it off. Either way garnered the same result. Render settings was "On for checked layers"

Per my post, the fridge was in a nested comp, and I took its layers and put them directly into the main comp.

The fridge is actually much larger than the frame. It has been scaled down to 52%, but it does this nonsense at 100% scale too. There is only one camera in the entire scene.

Nick Vaka
Motion Graphics & Animation
http://www.nickvaka.com


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Nick Vaka
Re: Jitter on certain layers
on Mar 14, 2019 at 5:50:46 pm

*The comp doesn't need to be in 3D (sorry)

Nick Vaka
Motion Graphics & Animation
http://www.nickvaka.com


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Steve Bentley
Re: Jitter on certain layers
on Mar 14, 2019 at 5:54:51 pm

If you just take the fridge element in a new project and just run it across the screen on a light background, do you get the same thing?
You could also try reducing the black levels for this element, it might be the rolloff on the antialiasing is having to do too much in a short span: going from super black to white.



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Nick Vaka
Re: Jitter on certain layers
on Mar 14, 2019 at 6:47:29 pm

I had the same problem before when I ran it over alpha. I just tried it over a teal background and the levels adjusted per your note. It's still having the same issues. Very strange.







Nick Vaka
Motion Graphics & Animation
http://www.nickvaka.com


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Steve Bentley
Re: Jitter on certain layers
on Mar 14, 2019 at 6:49:54 pm

If it does end up to be an alpha issue, you could try changing the alpha to premult or straight.



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Nick Vaka
Re: Jitter on certain layers
on Mar 14, 2019 at 7:10:02 pm

Just changed it from straight to premult and got the same result. Very frustrating.

Nick Vaka
Motion Graphics & Animation
http://www.nickvaka.com


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Cassius Marques
Re: Jitter on certain layers
on Mar 14, 2019 at 7:47:17 pm

There is nothing wrong with that project. You're just being too attentive to details there.

That judder is being caused by the combination of the layer's velocity and your FPS amount. To reduce you could try to change the speed, even increasing the movement may easy it a bit.

But that is extremely normal, I'm betting your client won't even notice it after all the post is added to that comp. Once you color correct, add a bit of noise, and maybe some texture/color bleeds to the whole shot (anything that reduces the overall contrast) it won't even be perceivable to our trained eyes.

My advice, after having strained ages with rolling credits, is to just go with it. Its fine as it is.

Cassius Marques
http://www.zapfilmes.com


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Nick Vaka
Re: Jitter on certain layers
on Mar 14, 2019 at 8:51:08 pm

That is personally where I'm at, but the client mentioned it and it's a really particular client. Additional texture might be the ticket. I'll fiddle around with it a bit more before throwing in the towel.

Much obliged.

Nick Vaka
Motion Graphics & Animation
http://www.nickvaka.com


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Jitter on certain layers
on Mar 14, 2019 at 10:31:33 pm

I hate to say it, but I also see the same kind of motion in the cutout pic of the people eating soup.
I'll guess that it's just the wrong speed of of horizontal motion, and it's causing the phenomenon of judder. If you're able to alter the horizontal speed just a little, either faster or slower, I bet the problem goes away.

Dave LaRonde
Promotion Producer
KGAN (CBS) & KFXA (Fox) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Kalleheikki Kannisto
Re: Jitter on certain layers
on Mar 15, 2019 at 5:00:21 pm

The default setting of 180 degrees motion blur is a compromise between smoothness and sharpness. If you make it 360 degrees you will get maximum smoothness, but the images will look somewhat "smeared". If you need to prioritize smoothness over sharpness, you can try that (if you haven't).

Kalleheikki Kannisto
Senior Graphic Designer


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Nick Vaka
Re: Jitter on certain layers
on Mar 15, 2019 at 6:07:54 pm

I just cranked it to 360ยบ and it's still doing it, but it's less noticeable with the additional blur. Maybe that's the ticket?

Nick Vaka
Motion Graphics & Animation
http://www.nickvaka.com


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Steve Bentley
Re: Jitter on certain layers
on Mar 15, 2019 at 9:19:53 pm

There isn't a frame rate difference between nested comps is there? Like 29.97 in the outer master comp and maybe 30 in the inner? Or footage at a diff frame rate from the comp?



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Nick Vaka
Re: Jitter on certain layers
on Mar 15, 2019 at 6:06:58 pm

Tried going a bit slower and way faster. It's still got that little judder. Good thought though, thank you.

Nick Vaka
Motion Graphics & Animation
http://www.nickvaka.com


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Kevin Camin
Re: Jitter on certain layers
on Mar 18, 2019 at 2:32:59 am

Up your frame rate to 60 and it will go away. The question is if the deliverable will playback at 60 on whatever platform that is. Motion blur can definitely help but I have a feeling it works counter to what the goal is: to have things be clear and somewhat sharp.

I've come across this issue so many times where clients want text or images to scroll across the screen but be legible and non-seizure inducing at the same time. Thing gotta crawl really slow or have a high frame rate to smooth things out. Even with live action the same problem persists. I was the VFX person on a shoot where cats rode skateboards through the frame. It was important that things be sharp so you can make out the product. We ran into the same issue at 24 or 30 fps, and it went away at 60, but the end platform dropped the frame rate to 30. Ho hum. Our best practice now is to avoid these executions and either have the moving thing stop in the middle of the frame then exit or move slower.

Best regards,

Kevin Camin


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Nick Vaka
Re: Jitter on certain layers
on Mar 18, 2019 at 3:36:56 pm

That is the one thing I have yet to try. I've made sure everything is now 59.94 FPS and it's cookin'. I'll let you know what it does.

Thanks!

Nick

Nick Vaka
Motion Graphics & Animation
http://www.nickvaka.com


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Nick Vaka
Re: Jitter on certain layers
on Mar 18, 2019 at 4:44:07 pm

Well shoot! That seems to have fixed the issue. It's going to take forever to render, but this fixes the problem. Now I just need to ensure we can play back at 59.94.

Thank you!







Nick Vaka
Motion Graphics & Animation
http://www.nickvaka.com


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Jitter on certain layers
on Mar 18, 2019 at 5:10:50 pm

Okay, now for future use, do you understand WHY the higher frame rate was the fix?

Not doubting your knowledge or experience, just checking.....

Dave LaRonde
Promotion Producer
KGAN (CBS) & KFXA (Fox) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Steve Bentley
Re: Jitter on certain layers
on Mar 18, 2019 at 5:13:37 pm

Depending on the problem you can pull the final render back into AE and render out at 29.97 to match your playback specs.



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Kevin Camin
Re: Jitter on certain layers
on Mar 18, 2019 at 5:13:44 pm

You're welcome. Hope you can do HFR playback.

Best regards,

Kevin Camin


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Max Haller
Re: Jitter on certain layers
on Mar 21, 2019 at 5:46:05 pm

Im not seeing anything odd in the video I don't see anything jittering or aliasing problems.


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Scott Thomas
Re: Jitter on certain layers
on Mar 22, 2019 at 4:46:32 am

It's a temporal issue not a spacial one.

It used to be (back-in-the-day) with electronic character generators, you had preset speeds you could roll text at to avoid judder or stroboscopic artifacts. It's the same phenomenon that makes wheels look like they are going backwards when shot at certain frame rates, with the wheels spinning at a certain speed with the shutter at a certain angle. It's all about aliasing and sampling errors.


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