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Rec 709 issues with AE / Premiere / REsolve

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Nicholas Bateman
Rec 709 issues with AE / Premiere / REsolve
on Jan 31, 2018 at 5:46:12 am

Hey there- I know there's a multitude of color change export questions on here- but this isn't really about normal hue shifts between players on exports. We've recently started compositing some final assemblies in rec709 as opposed to the default no-color space in AE, and with the no color space, the exports were the same (with expected player differences) between all apps. Once we switched to 709, it seems to be quite a bit brighter in gamma and offset- but the strange thing is that when that file is pulled back into AE it reads it as composited in the full 709 space, where in Premiere or in Resolve, it reads it as the flatter version (very similar to the default no color space). To add another layer of absurdity- if I switch AE files, it'll read as the flatter version, but if I bring the export into the native project in which it was composited, it reads correctly. I have gone through all of the ticked boxes in the color management that have been recommended, and even tried variations through them. Additionally, I've gone through AME with the same results. The only way it seems that it will burn in the 709 space, is if it's exported as PNG from AME. Obviously that's a little crazy- is there something I'm missing here? Thanks so much.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Rec 709 issues with AE / Premiere / REsolve
on Jan 31, 2018 at 9:27:30 am

Can you describe step-by-step what you're doing and maybe share a few screenshots of both your color management settings and the sorts of anomalies you're seeing?

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Nicholas Bateman
Re: Rec 709 issues with AE / Premiere / REsolve
on Jan 31, 2018 at 11:14:12 pm

Thanks so much for your reply! I attached color grid grabs. The first one is from the AE composition, the second is a preview of it in the AME viewer (same as it looks on export) and the third is my color management settings. Again, I've tried basically every combination of the management options ticked and unticked. Additionally, Resolve, Quicktime, VLC, Vimeo, and Resolve all read the flatter version. Only the AE project from which it is exported will show the darker version.
Seems nuts. Any ideas? Is there some 709 metadata that is being carried with the file instead of being baked in? Perhaps it's moving the black level up past 16? I've also tried other codecs, same result...

viewer in comp


export preview




color management


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Walter Soyka
Re: Rec 709 issues with AE / Premiere / REsolve
on Feb 1, 2018 at 12:32:38 am

What monitor do you have and what profile are you using with it, do you have "Use display color management" enabled (under the View menu), and what is View > Simulate Output set to?

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Nicholas Bateman
Re: Rec 709 issues with AE / Premiere / REsolve
on Feb 1, 2018 at 1:48:42 am

Ah, interesting! View- Simulate Output was on. When ticked off it reverted back to the flatter profile similar to the export. There is no simulate output checked. However, when I do check any of those (including rgb or just rec709) the image is horribly posterized.

Additionally, with it checked off, there seems to be no natural way to bring the black levels in the image to a correct placement. What is the standard method for this?


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Chris Wright
Re: Rec 709 issues with AE / Premiere / REsolve
on Feb 1, 2018 at 1:55:35 am

anything default is gamma 2.2. your is set to 2.4....


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Nicholas Bateman
Re: Rec 709 issues with AE / Premiere / REsolve
on Feb 1, 2018 at 2:00:05 am

Unless I'm super wrong, the standard compositing space for anything feature related is rec709 gamma 2.4. If I'm understanding you correctly and it's rendering at 2.2 then wouldn't the image get darker?
Thanks!


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Chris Wright
Re: Rec 709 issues with AE / Premiere / REsolve
on Feb 1, 2018 at 3:52:22 am

premiere doesn't handle 2.4 gamma unless you use a lut because it doesn't support color management-> at all. most video players not setup will also default to 2.2. you have to setup resolve and AE very specifically. If you want to burn in the colorspace, you can use AE's utility profile converter or a 1D gamma lut, make sense? and oh yea, premiere won't support color higher than sRGB so P3/adobe rgb won't work either.


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Nicholas Bateman
Re: Rec 709 issues with AE / Premiere / REsolve
on Feb 1, 2018 at 2:11:07 am

Oh also, I have a bunch of different monitors here, but I think the main one that the display is reading is a Dell 4k P2715Q.

Here are three stills:

One with the display color on:


One with it off:


and one with it off and the gamma brought down:


To my eye, the one with display color off and the gamma brought down still isn't achieving the correct black level, and losing a bit of the vibrance of the color profile. I haven't brought these into resolve yet, but is this the correct way I should be compositing with that display color turned off?


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Walter Soyka
Re: Rec 709 issues with AE / Premiere / REsolve
on Feb 1, 2018 at 11:40:45 am

[Nicholas Bateman] "I haven't brought these into resolve yet, but is this the correct way I should be compositing with that display color turned off?"

When you use Display Color Management, After Effects transforms color in the viewers to the monitor's profile for display only. This doesn't affect your output, but it does affect what you see in Ae. That's why the ONLY place this file looks like you expect is the Ae project that created it; neither the other software nor other AEP files are using the same display color management settings.

Ae uses the color profile your OS associates with your display. For accurate viewing of color in Ae, you need to use a probe to build a profile of your monitor. Then, because Ae can use the profile to understand how your monitor displays color, it can transform color from the working space to your specific profile. If your profile is not correct, but you are working under display color management, you'll never get the results you expect in other applications that are unaware of the profile.

For a little further clarification, with Simulate Output on, you can see how specific devices that do not understand color management would display your output. For example, if you're working in Rec. 709 Gamma 2.4, someone using an unmanaged web browser might see Internet Standard (sRGB).

I know this all gets a bit complicated. Please fire away with more questions if I'm not being clear.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Chris Wright
Re: Rec 709 issues with AE / Premiere / REsolve
on Feb 1, 2018 at 4:06:23 pm

this is better than adobe's help files.^


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Ron Fya
Re: Rec 709 issues with AE / Premiere / REsolve
on Feb 1, 2018 at 1:09:24 am

Hey Nicholas,

I have the same kind of problem as you but with another workflow.
It's described in this post.
https://forums.creativecow.net/thread/2/1126807

Maybe you will think of something I didn't think when you read it ...
I am still puzzled too by our respective issues :-/

Please let us know if you solve it !

Cheers


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Andrew Somers
Re: Rec 709 issues with AE / Premiere / REsolve
on Jun 21, 2018 at 2:21:13 am

"We've recently started compositing some final assemblies in rec709 as opposed to the default no-color space in AE, and with the no color space, the exports were the same (with expected player differences) between all apps. Once we switched to 709, it seems to be quite a bit brighter in gamma and offset- but the strange thing is that when that file is pulled back into AE it reads it as composited in the full 709 space"

Something I discovered is that not all Rec709 profiles are created the same - some have a technically wrong gamma. This includes Rec709 profiles that ship with Adobe products.

The profile named "HDTV (Rec709)" does not have the correct gamma curve - in fact "HDTV (Rec709)" seems indistinguishable from the sRGB profile!!!

Unfortunately there are many Rec709 profiles out there, with different gamma curves.

The profile named Rec709-elle-V4-Rec709.icc seems to be one of the few correct ones out there. It can be downloaded here:

https://github.com/ellelstone/elles_icc_profiles/blob/master/profiles/Rec70...

This profile seems to have both the correct linearization at levels lower than 0.018, and the correct gamma offset that results (the offset results in a perceptual gamma that varies about 1.9 to 2.0 depending on level).


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