FORUMS: list search recent posts

Millions vs Trillions of Colors - ProRes4444 Export

COW Forums : Adobe After Effects

<< PREVIOUS   •   FAQ   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
Weston Jones
Millions vs Trillions of Colors - ProRes4444 Export
on Nov 9, 2017 at 10:40:00 pm

Hello,

I'm finishing a project and want to make sure I'm not throwing away bit depth in my exports from After Effects.

I'm working with Alexa LOG C footage 12 bit, in a project with color management turned off and in 32 BPC. I've been exporting to ProRes4444 with the color set accidentally to "millions of colors". However, if I bring that export back into After Effects, its interpreted as "trillions of colors".

Am I throwing away colors by selecting "millions of colors"? Or does ProRes444 default to "trillions". I'm wondering if the distinction matters with this codec, source material, and working space.

I tried using this grey card https://studiohanneman.com/blog/2017/08/08/bit-depth-test-chart/ in my workflow, and it seems like I'm not throwing away color. But I'm not really sure.

Any help is greatly appreciated. Thank you.


Return to posts index

Dave LaRonde
Re: Millions vs Trillions of Colors - ProRes4444 Export
on Nov 9, 2017 at 11:03:06 pm

They get to the "trillions" figure by including the bits required for an alpha channel. No Alpha, no trillions. That's why there's ProRes 444. Same bit depth, no Alpha.

Dave LaRonde
Promotion Producer
KGAN (CBS) & KFXA (Fox) Cedar Rapids, IA


Return to posts index

Weston Jones
Re: Millions vs Trillions of Colors - ProRes4444 Export
on Nov 9, 2017 at 11:10:29 pm

Thanks Dave, whew, that makes sense.

Just to double check: so with 12bit source material, in a project at 32BPC, exporting to ProRes4444 at "millions" will yield at 12bit file?


Return to posts index


Chris Wright
Re: Millions vs Trillions of Colors - ProRes4444 Export
on Nov 9, 2017 at 11:43:47 pm

every test I've ever done, millions of colors limits the color engine to 8 bit. If that has changed, I'd be more than happy to accept being wrong. I'm very sure you need trillions of colors from the color engine to dither 10 bit, 12 bit, and 16 bit. You would need float for 32bpc.
you would need the project working space set as trillions or 32bpc for transfer modes/color correction to work at higher color depths.
and you're right about color management, it creates a 0.1% loss quality in absolute value conversions. I'd recommend the free professional plugin opencolorio for any lut viewing as a guide layer.(it won't get rendered out even if you forget to disable the layer)


Return to posts index

Dave LaRonde
Re: Millions vs Trillions of Colors - ProRes4444 Export
on Nov 9, 2017 at 11:53:51 pm

Well, it all depends on the application where this animation will be used NEXT. What is it?

Dave LaRonde
Promotion Producer
KGAN (CBS) & KFXA (Fox) Cedar Rapids, IA


Return to posts index

Weston Jones
Re: Millions vs Trillions of Colors - ProRes4444 Export
on Nov 9, 2017 at 11:54:59 pm

It's going to a colorist using Resolve to grade.


Return to posts index


Dave LaRonde
Re: Millions vs Trillions of Colors - ProRes4444 Export
on Nov 10, 2017 at 12:01:01 am

Let me put it to you this way -- I know a guy who works in California on stuff for Discovery Channel & History Channel. He sends his cuts to the colorist in ProRes 444.

But you say your stuff's going to a colorist. What was the point of bringing it into AE? Just curious.

Dave LaRonde
Promotion Producer
KGAN (CBS) & KFXA (Fox) Cedar Rapids, IA


Return to posts index

Weston Jones
Re: Millions vs Trillions of Colors - ProRes4444 Export
on Nov 10, 2017 at 12:04:35 am

Its a short film, with about 30 FX shots done in AE. I'm exporting the FX shots from AE and then they'll be part of the full sequence in Premiere. From Premiere I'll be rendering out the final export for the colorist.

The colorist said ProRes4444 was good for the grade. I just want to make sure I'm not throwing away color depth.

Thanks.


Return to posts index

Walter Soyka
Re: Millions vs Trillions of Colors - ProRes4444 Export
on Nov 10, 2017 at 12:38:39 am

[Weston Jones] "I just want to make sure I'm not throwing away color depth."

Then you should set the output module to Trillions of Colors. If you leave it at Millions of Colors, you'll get dithered 8-bit video in a 12-bit container.

Ae reports the media as Trillions of Colors because that's the pixel format ProRes 4444 uses. It does not indicate the actual bit depth of the footage.

The presence of an alpha channel is indicated with a plus sign: "Millions of Colors+" or "Trillions of Colors+".

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


Return to posts index


Weston Jones
Re: Millions vs Trillions of Colors - ProRes4444 Export
on Nov 10, 2017 at 12:49:33 am

I'm going to re-export. Thanks everyone, I'm glad I didn't deliver 8bit.


Return to posts index

Weston Jones
Re: Millions vs Trillions of Colors - ProRes4444 Export
on Nov 10, 2017 at 4:12:25 pm

So I re-exported in Trillions. Shots with gradients show much higher banding than previously when exported in Millions. How can that be?


Return to posts index

Chris Wright
Re: Millions vs Trillions of Colors - ProRes4444 Export
on Nov 10, 2017 at 5:08:35 pm

are you using viewing luts or grading directly into your native color monitor(won't work if your monitor is not color managed? lumetri plugin doesn't support color models higher than sRGB(alexa can use higher color model) or you'll get artifacting.(that's why opencolorio is used) Does it appear with a quick test image sequence Tiff trillions of colors? did you shoot underexposed? using any 16 cube luts?(use 64) if everything is done right, you should have zero banding in that camera. zero.


Return to posts index


Weston Jones
Re: Millions vs Trillions of Colors - ProRes4444 Export
on Nov 10, 2017 at 5:43:45 pm

I'm using viewing luts (lumetri input LUTS) on an adjustment layer that's a guide layer, so I maintain the LOG color on export. I will go the open color route next time. I realized the banding is only a few shots where I've added gradients, smoke effects, and the like, in After Effects. So it's not the camera footage, but the post processing.

I'm adding some noise to the gradients and re exporting. However, these shots do mostly look fine within Premiere. It's only when go to export a ProRes4444 file (at 16bpc), that the banding occurs. Is it possible that this second export can introduce artifacts? Should I export to a DPX 16bit image sequence instead?

Going to do tests, but in general, are there sometimes artifacts in a prores4444 export and not DPX?

Thank you.


Return to posts index

Walter Soyka
Re: Millions vs Trillions of Colors - ProRes4444 Export
on Nov 10, 2017 at 7:10:33 pm

[Weston Jones] "So I re-exported in Trillions. Shots with gradients show much higher banding than previously when exported in Millions. How can that be?"

First, is your project set to 16bpc or higher?

Secondly, are you are viewing on an 8-bit monitor?

If the render is not specifically introducing dithering, then nothing extra is being done to the image to reduce the appearance of banding at lower bit depths. That means it's possible that your monitor is introducing a banding artifact that is not in the source. (Dithering the source makes a high bit depth image more visually pleasing on a monitor of lower bit depth, but it does of course alter the image.)

You can see whether this is the case by mousing over a banded area and keeping an eye on the Info panel. If the RGB numbers are changing as you move the mouse through what appears to be a solid area, then you know that your display pathway is introducing banding that does not actually exist in the image.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


Return to posts index

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
© 2017 CreativeCOW.net All Rights Reserved
[TOP]