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Color conversion

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Jerry Smith
Color conversion
on May 9, 2017 at 5:39:37 pm

I've got a .mov that is an animation, Miilions of Colors+ (Straight) and that was created without a working color space.

It looks very good on my monitor.

But the monitor has a screwy color profile.

How do I convert it to sRGB? We have two color profiles in play: MonitorProfileI, and sRGB

I want to bounce out a new .mov and then switch my monitor profile from MonitorProfileI to sRGB and have the new .mov look like the original .mov.

Can somebody tell me the steps? I could use Pr if that is easier.

THanks in advance.


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Color conversion
on May 9, 2017 at 5:59:39 pm

You shouldn't have to do a thing to it. It ought to be just plain ol' garden-variety RGB. Which is just fine.

Dave LaRonde
Promotion Producer
KGAN (CBS) & KFXA (Fox) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Jerry Smith
Re: Color conversion
on May 9, 2017 at 6:13:20 pm

You are correct. It gets read as sRGB by most computers, whatever. The problem is that it looks way too dark on most monitors. I need to somehow invert it. If you look at hollywoodreporter.com, you will see that their logo is a nice red. But my monitor, the one where this .mov was created, has hollywoodreporter.com's logo looking very orange! I don't need anything to be exact as this is very cartoonish. But I do need to somehow invert what I have.


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Jerry Smith
Re: Color conversion
on May 9, 2017 at 7:03:58 pm

Dave? Where'd you go?

Anybody?


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Walter Soyka
Re: Color conversion
on May 10, 2017 at 9:38:44 am

[Jerry Smith] "I've got a .mov that is an animation, Miilions of Colors+ (Straight) and that was created without a working color space. It looks very good on my monitor. But the monitor has a screwy color profile. How do I convert it to sRGB? We have two color profiles in play: MonitorProfileI, and sRGB"

Since you're not using Ae's built-in color management system, you must do your color management manually.

Add the Color Profile Converter effect to your comp. Set the Input Profile to "MonitorProfileI" and set the Output Profile to "sRGB IEC61966-2.1." This should look a bit messed up now until you correct your monitor profile.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Jerry Smith
Re: Color conversion
on May 10, 2017 at 10:18:47 am

Hey Walter,

Thanks for showing up. I was wondering if you were around.

OK, I will try what you suggest and report back within the hour.

In the meantime, I wanted to put on the table two issues/questions:

1) In AE 2014, my .movs are sRGB and I can interpret them with all the different profiles, but nothing changes!

2) In AE 2015, my .movs are HDTV (Rec79) and I can't even interpret them.

OK, off to try the effect!


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Jerry Smith
Re: Color conversion
on May 10, 2017 at 11:35:20 am

Walter,

You are the only thing between me an insanity. Having read various color threads on the internets, I know I am not alone!

OK, let me just back up for a moment. MonitorProfileI on my monitor is where all my stuff looks right.

But, MonitorProfile is screwy. First of all, the reds come out too orange. So on hollywoodreporter.com, the logo looks too orange.

But that's not even the worst of it. When I look at my display profiles, there are a whole bunch. And the sRGB looks darker but still too orange. So now I don't even know how to sail towards sRGB.

I need to somehow get my stuff to look right on most computers. I'm pretty sure that if I can tame the red, the rest will follow.

I have the calibration stuff. I calibrated last year. But even if I calibrated, how would we proceed? Do you see a path out?

Here's the BIG problem. There are MANY projects/.movs.

I may call you in tears soon.

Thanks!


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Tero Ahlfors
Re: Color conversion
on May 10, 2017 at 12:07:22 pm

Get an I/O device and a reference monitor. Then calibrate the monitor to a standard like rec709. Whatever you see on the reference monitor will be in rec709 and you don't have to deal with what the OS or the GPU is probably doing to the colours under the hood.

There are different systems but I use Lightspace: http://www.lightillusion.com/lut_calibration_idiots_guide.html


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Jerry Smith
Re: Color conversion
on May 10, 2017 at 12:27:16 pm

Thanks Tero,

You've helped me in the past and I very much appreciate it.

At this point though, I want to hear what Walter recommends.

Too many cooks could really get in the way.

This is a very big deal for me. I hope you understand.

Thanks!


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Walter Soyka
Re: Color conversion
on May 10, 2017 at 1:28:12 pm

Tero's advice is sound, especially if you're working with video sources. If you're working with imagery from a mix of color spaces (i.e., some sRGB, some Adobe RGB, etc.), then you would need to use color management in addition to the reference video monitoring.

If you are going to fix this problem in Ae without a reference monitor and I/O card, then you need an accurate profile of your monitor to use with Ae's color management system. If there is something weird with your monitor, you will not be able to judge your work without color management.

I take it that using the Color Profile Converter as I recommended above did not work? Remember, you may need to turn off the profile now in the OS or on the monitor. If you've done that and the CPC effect didn't work, that indicates to me that the previous profile you were using did not actually describe the monitor. If that's the case, Job #1 is getting to a display that you can trust. Then we can work on adjusting the images you've made to be correct.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Jerry Smith
Re: Color conversion
on May 10, 2017 at 1:48:47 pm

The CPC effect was slight and seemed to be in the wrong direction. I tried a bunch of different things.

How do I turn off a profile in the OS? It seems I'm forced to choose some profile. Mac OS Sierra.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Color conversion
on May 10, 2017 at 1:52:52 pm

What monitor are you using? Is it wide-gamut? Can you render and post a frame or two that looks right on your monitor (but wrong elsewhere)?

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Jerry Smith
Re: Color conversion
on May 10, 2017 at 1:57:53 pm

dell u2410

where should i post?

1 hand type as i hold spyder


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Walter Soyka
Re: Color conversion
on May 10, 2017 at 2:39:40 pm

You have a wide-gamut monitor. This is not for the faint of heart! You must make sure that your profiling solution supports wide-gamut displays. You must use color management in applications like Ae, because if you leave that kind of display unmanaged, everything will look grotesquely oversaturated on your display.

For the easy way out, you could do a factory reset on the monitor, set it to its sRGB emulation mode, and set the system color profile to sRGB.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Jerry Smith
Re: Color conversion
on May 10, 2017 at 2:41:06 pm

OK, that link seems to work. The main problem is that on all other machines, my other mac, my windows machine, my linux machine, those colors look too dark. They should be as child friendly as possible yet not super saturated. Except for the red. It can be a little obnoxious.


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Walter Soyka
Re: Color conversion
on May 10, 2017 at 2:52:05 pm

Not very scientific, but how does this image look on your other machines? This is the result of Color Profile Converter, going from the generic Wide Gamut RGB profile to sRGB.



Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Jerry Smith
Re: Color conversion
on May 10, 2017 at 3:24:13 pm

That looks pretty close to perfect.

Thanks thanks thanks thanks!

I need to see if I can get the workflow straight.

Should I go back into the original projects and add an adjustment layer to the main composition?

Or should I just drag the widegamutbounces into a new AE project as I did here? (I don't want to degrade the audio in any way.)

What working space do I use? I'm tempted to stay with None. I need to pick these new colors off and get their hex codes so I can use them in the CSS for the webpages.

Given my colors are soooo simple, can I just use 8bits per channel? I have maybe 6 colors for each project. And a few transition colors for 1px transitions?

But thanks so much Walter. Tears of pain, tears of joy! I knew there would be tears!

What's the charity again that you prefer? I'm so grateful!


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Walter Soyka
Re: Color conversion
on May 10, 2017 at 4:36:08 pm

[Jerry Smith] "That looks pretty close to perfect. Thanks thanks thanks thanks!"

Great. You're welcome.

[Jerry Smith] "Should I go back into the original projects and add an adjustment layer to the main composition? Or should I just drag the widegamutbounces into a new AE project as I did here? (I don't want to degrade the audio in any way.) "

You could do either one. Lossless audio won't be affected. (If you want to get crazy, you could actually even build a LUT with Red Giant LUT Buddy that performs this correction and apply it with Adobe Media Encoder for easy batch processing.)



[Jerry Smith] "What working space do I use? I'm tempted to stay with None. I need to pick these new colors off and get their hex codes so I can use them in the CSS for the webpages. "

When you set a working space, it turns on Ae's color management system. If your monitor were correctly profiled and color management were enabled like this, then you could use the Display Color Management feature to see an accurate rendition of color in the viewer panels. If you can get your monitor profiled correctly, you'd want to do this for everything. In general, use your destination space as your working space (most often either sRGB or Rec. 709, which are very nearly indistinguishable).


[Jerry Smith] "Given my colors are soooo simple, can I just use 8bits per channel? I have maybe 6 colors for each project. And a few transition colors for 1px transitions?"

8bpc is probably fine. Bump up to 16bpc if you do any gradients and see any banding. Several notable output formats (Animation codec. H.264) are usually only 8bpc anyway, but using 16bpc and rendering to an output module with Millions of Colors will enable dithering, which can smooth out banding.


[Jerry Smith] "What's the charity again that you prefer? I'm so grateful!"

That's the whole trick! It's not which charity I prefer, it's one you prefer. I shamelessly stole the idea from Jeff Almasol's #devforacause hashtag. If this has been helpful to you, please consider making a donation reflective of that value to your charity of choice.

Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive [twitter]   |   RenderBreak [blog]   |   Profile [LinkedIn]


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Jerry Smith
Re: Color conversion
on May 10, 2017 at 4:46:10 pm

OK! Thanks!

Tomorrow will be a long day as I'll try and get the workflow right.

I'll look at the LUT possibility as I have another small tweak.

I'll update you tomorrow!


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Jerry Smith
Re: Color conversion
on May 11, 2017 at 9:12:51 pm

Everything went according to plan today.

Thanks so much Walter.

But there doesn't seem to be an exact analog for PS. If I just convert from sRGB to WideGamut, it looks fine, but the hex numbers are off. I can sorta use the painbucket tool because I know what hex I want. But the transition pixels are off.


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