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Glenn Venghaus
Globalsan iSCSI initiator vs Synology DS1511+ multipath I/O
on Jul 2, 2012 at 10:37:49 pm

Guys and galls,

Is there anyone on this forum who has "EVER" gotten MPIO or MC/S iSCSI working with a Synology device and the globalsan initiator ?

Have bee trying for a while but so far , even with the support of SNS no luck. See this post : http://www.snsforums.com/index.php?showtopic=565

Asked synology for comment on this as well as it seems to happily work on Windows platform with Synology devices.


Main symptom and core of problem is that each path to a LUN on a target is seen as a separate device and not as 2 paths to the same device.


So any info on this would be very helpfull (also failed attempts with other or similar symptoms)


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Bob Zelin
Re: Globalsan iSCSI initiator vs Synology DS1511+ multipath I/O
on Jul 3, 2012 at 10:58:20 pm

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003DTLXKG/ref=asc_df_B003DTLXKG2081852?smid=ATVPD...

Hi -
feel free to tell me to go screw myself.
Above is the $499 Synology 1511+. It is a 5 bay NAS that has the capability of iSCSI.

You are never going to get a box like this to work for a shared storage envionment for what we do for a living. You want to have video shared storage. Get a Mac Pro. Run SNS GlobalSAN Xtarget on the Mac Pro - buy a REAL DRIVE ARRAY - anything you like, that you see advertised here on Creative Cow - nothing - not a single item - on Creative Cow is $499 - but get a real drive array, and plug it into the Mac Pro. Run GlobalSAN XTarget on this box. Now, put SNS GlobalSAN iSCSI initiator on your workstations (Premiere, etc.). Put SNS SANmp admin on your server, put SNS SANmp client on your editing workstations, and guess what - everything will work. And guess what - it will not cost $499. So how can you build a shared storage enviornment for $499 for video workstations - YOU CAN'T.

Glenn's reply to me: SCREW YOU.
Bob's reply to Glenn: SCREW YOU. You are not getting anything for $499 - Period. And the day that you can, I am not part of Creative Cow.

Bob Zelin
ps - yes, I read your post on the SNS forum. I read it all.



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Glenn Venghaus
Re: Globalsan iSCSI initiator vs Synology DS1511+ multipath I/O
on Jul 4, 2012 at 6:00:27 am

Ok first off all, thanks for replying at all to my post you holy emperor of know it all :-)
I would never tell anyone to screw himself on a forum but hey that is just me. I was just hoping for a serious awnser on this (i thought) professional forum of people with much more experience on this subject then myself.

I do not have a video editing shop but just a small setup for producing art videos and smal documentaries for a very small audience. Have been working with this setup for a few years and sofar have never had a hickup with the DS1511 + extension bay solid 90 MB/s on average. Am already running iSANMP ( so you probably did not read it properly) and can easily edit 2k in this setup so i wouldn't talk it down that easy. But of course feel free to spend 40k plus on an array if you need it. On my real job (that makes the money) in IT i work daily with arrays of petabytes in ginormous datacenter, butstill see the advantage of these affordable boxes as long as they get the job done.. I also have the money to buy huge arrays, but simple do not need it so why should i?
Unless you measure profesionalisme on how much money you spend to get the job done.....
I am just asking a simple question on getting advertised functionality to work. At least the guys at SNS take the question seruously.

So for anyone else that is still happy (or not) with their synlogy 2lan equiped array and does have mpio experience please let me know.


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Steve Modica
Re: Globalsan iSCSI initiator vs Synology DS1511+ multipath I/O
on Jul 13, 2012 at 3:47:31 pm

You might try the Small Tree Initiator. We just got MPIO working and I'd like to see if it works with your target anyhow. (Not sure if we posted the driver but you can email me and I'll send it).

I don't think MPIO is going to help you. It will increase the bandwidth to the thing, but you could do that with 10Gb too (assuming it supported 10Gb). The issue will be the spindles. For $499 you could get maybe 1 spindle :) That's not enough for video latencies.

People go around thinking that the network is the problem or that ethernet is the problem. Ethernet ROCKS. Ethernet is superfast. Ethernet has flow control and the gigabit port on your Mac Book Pro can *kick your internal spinning drives paltry little 40MB/sec ASS*, yet, people think Ethernet is slow.

So, the issue is that disk drives are slow. Disk drives need to catch up to 10Gb now. (1GB per sec!) Bring it on.

Steve

Steve Modica
CTO, Small Tree Communications


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Glenn Venghaus
Re: Globalsan iSCSI initiator vs Synology DS1511+ multipath I/O
on Jul 13, 2012 at 4:14:22 pm

That would be indeed an interesting test. Did not realise you guys also had initiators. Only knew about atto and sns. Will mail you. Asumme you are iSANmp compatible ?

Regarding 10Gb no unfortunately not but would also be rediculous if it had in this pricerange.
Spindels i have 10 , running this with one expansion cabinet ( the price quoted by the sensei was for the caninet and not the main unit btw) and should easily be able to do 200 Mb , to saturate 2x1Gb.
With that feeding one workstation at the same time you can do some nice work already (considering the budget of around 2k for the 2 cabinets and 10x7200rpm).

I am from the time that you had to write code of max 64 kb to fit in memory. So believe in maxing out your hardware by some smart usage, rather they buying of the shelve expensive stuff.
Not always works out of course but love experimenting. :-)

So far doing pretty wel with a few crammed mac mini servers , macbook pros and imacs . Packed with reder cluster nodes, happily blasting away at my nuke projects. Full automated delivery of final edits from FCP to a massively customised final cut server. And still able to do realtime grading in 2k and editing ( if i dont go grazy on the trackcount.

Wanted to add a macpro to upscale but the current hilarious price/value upgrade does not convince me . So i will wait and see what happens there, while in the mean time trying to squeeze the max out of the current setup.

P.s. I have SNS and synology developers talking together and working on getting this to work. Have good hopes.


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Bob Zelin
Re: Globalsan iSCSI initiator vs Synology DS1511+ multipath I/O
on Jul 14, 2012 at 5:44:44 pm

Glenn writes -
"Spindels i have 10 , running this with one expansion cabinet ( the price quoted by the sensei was for the caninet and not the main unit btw) and should easily be able to do 200 Mb , to saturate 2x1Gb.
With that feeding one workstation at the same time you can do some nice work already (considering the budget of around 2k for the 2 cabinets and 10x7200rpm). "

So you have 10 drives available to you, and you want to have shared storage. This is the reason I become such a smart ass in posts like this, and become so rude. This entire post is simply about money - the money you do not want to spend. You can simply get a Mac Pro on eBay, run Studio Network Solutions XTarget, and be done with this, and have exactly what you want, performing exactly the way you want it to. But you just won't buy that Mac Pro on eBay - will you? - you have to use your $499 box. It's more of a matter of principal to you than the money. Sorry, I can't be polite in a situation like this.

Bob Zelin



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Glenn Venghaus
Re: Globalsan iSCSI initiator vs Synology DS1511+ multipath I/O
on Jul 14, 2012 at 6:11:00 pm

No problem, be as rude as you want. That is your choice. I remain polite.
And again it was not 499 . that is only the expansion cabinet so add about 600 to it ;-) . (but of course that does not change your point which is valid)

You are right at least for the part that i do not want to buy a secondhand crappy old mac pro (my current dual 480GB 6G ssd's 16gb 2012 macbook pro runs circles around it so why should I). I am still hoping for a better specced model . Yes i could go the windows route but dont want to.

So i just keep playing with my current 'inferior' toys if you don't mind.

And iscsi on macpro has the same limitation on 1GB ethernet as my current setup (single connection to host still 1 or 2gb (if mpio)), so unless i go fiber or 10gb (which creates all kinds of problems with my mobile workstations not having the proper connection) there is absolutely no gain there.
So unless there is a 'real' gain and not an emotional , i rather spend my money on software or more ssd drives for local caches etc.
If you say fiber and only macpros as workstations yes they i fully agree with you. But thats just not my situation.

And also , i decide myself what this post is about and not you. The post is about getting a synology, in an aleade existing and proper working setup, to do mpio (as advertised ) to get the max out of the current setup and not about what is the best shared storage on the planet. Because forget about a macpro and xtarget if that is the question and budget is unlimited. I would then get some of the servers and petabyte SAN's out of a datacenter i work.
Would be a bit overkill for the few small artmovies and docs i make , but het it would at least meat your stamp of approval ;-)

Chill bro....


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Glenn Venghaus
Re: Globalsan iSCSI initiator vs Synology DS1511+ multipath I/O
on Jul 14, 2012 at 6:27:52 pm

p.s. If after the SNS and synology guys who are currently working on the problem can not figure it out and get it working to give me close to 200MB/s to a single workstation, i will start agreeing with you and might even spring for a macpro (as soon as a new model comes out)with xtarget.
But if it starts working even a newer macpro will not give me anything extra with 2x1Gb iscsi connections and i will happily stick with my inferior setup that gives me exactly what i need.

p.s. off topic but ssd's rock !! Can't have enough of those.


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Alex Gerulaitis
Re: Globalsan iSCSI initiator vs Synology DS1511+ multipath I/O
on Jul 13, 2012 at 9:00:55 pm

Glenn (and everyone):

Since this is iSCSI (not a shared solution in itself), I assume you want to bond two NICs to a server of sort? Whereas said server also having bonded connections to a switch?

Just curious: wouldn't bonding NAS' ports direct to a switch be a simpler solution? (Theoretically, this avoids the additional bottleneck/ overhead of the separate server.)

(Practically NAS probably doesn't have enough CPU power to handle multiple TCP/IP connections as efficiently as a dedicated server - is that the whole reason for iSCSI+server vs. NAS?)

(Bob to Alex: SCREW YOU! You get NOTHING but fries for $499! :))

Alex Gerulaitis
Systems Integrator
DV411 - Los Angeles, CA


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Glenn Venghaus
Re: Globalsan iSCSI initiator vs Synology DS1511+ multipath I/O
on Jul 13, 2012 at 11:39:23 pm

Hi Alex ,

In fact we are discussing a solution wthout dedicated iscsi server. The synology device hosts the iscsi target and has therefore extra cpu power and memory compared to its smaller siblings.
Of course this solution has its limitations where it concerns multiple concurrent connections.
For that Bobs server attached storage in combination wth xtarget software sharing this storage via iscsi has much more possibilities.
Also the more professional solution could use a dedicated iscsi adapter, which takes care of the iscsi translation and saving lots of cpu on the host ( which can be signifficant).

Regarding bonding, keep in mind that that is something very different then what we are discussing and is something lots of people mix up.
In channel bonding you bind 2 network adapters together (switch has to support this ) to form a wider pipeline. The single sessions from host to target are still limited to the max speed of a single connection ( in my case 1Gb) but more connections at the same can use the wider pipe. Also this creates redundency in case one connection brakes
MPIO - multi path i/o, or MC/S - multimple connections per session, (both sligthly differrent) allow for a single connection to the target to gain more speed by using the 2 channels at the same time, limited to the theoretical maximum of (in my case ) 2Gb.
This is what i am trying to achieve here.


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Alex Gerulaitis
Re: Globalsan iSCSI initiator vs Synology DS1511+ multipath I/O
on Jul 14, 2012 at 12:03:29 am

[Glenn Venghaus] "Of course this solution has its limitations where it concerns multiple concurrent connections."

Just to clarify: you will be using this setup just for one client system at a time? I.e. not for any sort of sharing (outside of sharing at a client level)?

"multiple concurrent connections" - only for MPIO purposes, i.e. between a single initiator and a target?

Alex Gerulaitis
Systems Integrator
DV411 - Los Angeles, CA


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Glenn Venghaus
Re: Globalsan iSCSI initiator vs Synology DS1511+ multipath I/O
on Jul 14, 2012 at 7:20:47 am

Well yes and no.
I am using iSANmp to be able to share with multiple workstations (as you need a special cluster aware filesystem, otherwise you corrupt it) , but in practice only a single workstation at a time will put a heavy demand on it eg editing etc. But this can be a differrent workstation every time depending on the task.

And yes mpio and mc/s talk about a single initiators connections to a single target but over more then one network connection at the same time .


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alex mitchell
Re: Globalsan iSCSI initiator vs Synology DS1511+ multipath I/O
on Aug 13, 2012 at 2:58:11 pm

@Glenn Venghaus

Hi Glenn, did you get Multi-Path working for you?

I have been testing out a HP N40L server solution as an iSCSI target using Global San iSCSI and Open Media Vault as the target OS.

I am currently trialling 3 x 3TB hdd's as RAID 5 (so not great write but ok read) and I have been able to get reads of 150MB/s over dual ports. (Not maxing out connection due to only using 3 drives- (but they are expensive!)).

What was an important consideration was making sure that the NICS are on different subnets, GlobalSAN is great for MPIO as you simply 'add' another connection and point it to your 2nd Target NIC.

Let me know if this has helped or if I am on another planet with your current question.

However this sort of 'aspect' of computers is only going to get more important.

Currently my HP N40L has cost a bit more than I expected... quite a bit more... but I am happy with what it is pushing out with only 3 drives... will but crazy with 2 more!

YMMV


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Glenn Venghaus
Re: Globalsan iSCSI initiator vs Synology DS1511+ multipath I/O
on Aug 13, 2012 at 3:23:10 pm

Hi Alex,

Thanks for your feedback man. Yes in the end i got it to work, but it required a new beta driver from Globalsan as it was the combination of globalsan/osx10.7.4/synology that did not work as expected.

Performance is ok considering the hardware, but still tweeking to get more out of it. Just hacking with some network settings (internal on the synology) can already make a big difference of tens of megabytes/s.


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alex mitchell
Re: Globalsan iSCSI initiator vs Synology DS1511+ multipath I/O
on Aug 14, 2012 at 4:01:29 am

Remember the performance of Software Raid (which is what I believe your box to be) is 100% dependent on the amount of drives. (more so than Hardware- as Hardware is fast with minimal drives).

I think that 7 drives is the suggested amount for SW Raid. And FAST arrays use 10's of drives.

I have found reports of users pulling 260MB/s out of only 5 drives so don't despair.

MPIO is totally worth it in my opinion.

Cheers,
Alex


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Paul Muller
Re: Globalsan iSCSI initiator vs Synology DS1511+ multipath I/O
on Nov 14, 2013 at 2:58:32 am

Sorry for re-opening the wound, but I am having similar challenges and wonder if/how you solved the problem.

After months of using a FreeNAS SAN and struggling with general flakiness and the feeling that I was running without a safety net, I switched over to a DS3612xs which features 4x 1GbE ports as well as a slot for a 10GbE NIC (which I have populated with an Intel x540T2 paired to a (wonderful) SmallTree dual-10GbE NIC on my 2009 12 core Mac Pro) and the Globalsan iSCSI initiator.

FreeNAS worked great with this setup and iSCSI MPIO (albeit I was never able to get it working faster than about 250MB/sec), but I can't get it working on Synology DSM 4.3 (most recent updates installed).

Enabling multiple sessions on the DS3612xs results in a duplicate drives on being created - one for each instance.

What am I doing wrong?


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Glenn Venghaus
Re: Globalsan iSCSI initiator vs Synology DS1511+ multipath I/O
on Nov 14, 2013 at 10:22:55 am

You are doing nothing wrong. It is a known issue with Synology that the way they implemented iscsi and multiple network connections somehow does not work nicely together with MacOSX and multipath supporting iSCSI initiators. Did a lot of investigation on this together with SNS.
Its not only with the Globalsan driver that it gives issues. I was offered to test a SmallTrees initiator , which also did not work.
My guy feeling was after lots of test that it was down to 2 issue on the synology side.
1. bad isolation between the networks internaly , causing the 2nd network path to be reachable and advertised over the 1st path. Playing with the inbuild firewall and OS lavel hacking the synology gave mixed results on this.
2. The way a iscsi device was advertised by the target (maybe in combo with OSX as heared better stories on windows)), makes it somehow difficult for the initiator side to see that 2 devices are actualy the same device over 2 paths.

In the end the very friendly SNS guys worked with me for a long time and we got to a stable beta verions that worked for my unique combination, but this did not make it into the main release stream. For understandable reasons as they had to hack / bypass synologys issues for a very small group of their target users (look at the lack of comments on this thread or google search for mpio and you know enough) , that even could negatively effect other more widely used combinations.

For me this meant i froze my config at OSX 10.7.4 synology at DSM4.0 and Globalsan at an unreleased beta.
But its getting me stable 135-140MB/s over 2x1GB.

For my small 4 seat setup it is fast enough and I will make it till december (Mac Pro christmas time ;-)

So unless now lots of synology users start using multipathing , which i do not really see happening, you are out of luck on the mpio front.

Maybe when 10G multi cards (like smalltrees) get more mainstream (and a lot cheape (maybe pushed by proper competition of thunderbold based storage networks in the future) , the whole mpio stuff gets the attention it deserves on more fronts. Its a magic bullet if used properly.


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Steve Modica
Re: Globalsan iSCSI initiator vs Synology DS1511+ multipath I/O
on Nov 21, 2013 at 11:04:14 pm

I was playing with this not long ago. I think the issue is configuration on the target side. (this is freeBSD I was playing with). I saw similar problems.
FreeBSD 10 builds the iSCSI target code into the kernel, so everything changes anyhow.

Steve Modica
CTO, Small Tree Communications


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Paul Muller
Re: Globalsan iSCSI initiator vs Synology DS1511+ multipath I/O
on Dec 16, 2013 at 2:02:28 am

Thanks Glenn for confirming that I am not losing my marbles (at least in this case), if I were a betting man Synology's approach to iSCSI probably works great with Windows and vmWare which is the bulk of the market anyway) and unless that's broken there's little commercial pressure to address it.

Steve - as usual you are a source of great help and knowledge. My 10GbE FreeNAS iSCIS implementation was never able to get any faster than about 2.5Gb/sec (R/W) even with 16 striped HDDs (or 4 striped SATA III SSDs) on the fastest controllers I could find. The STRANGE thing is that AFP/SMB with the same box easily hit 10Gb/sec R/W speeds.

So clearly my SmallTree NICs are NOT the problem (whew).

So, what is it about iSCSI that is such a pig? When I saw you at NAB you demonstrated your amazing FreeBSD based appliance that was using a sparse disk image with FCPX to get 10Gb/s speeds, what is the iSCSI performance like?

(to be clear, I would have bought one of those instead of a Synology were it not for the fact I needed more spindles than would fit in your great device!)

p.s. it's perversely comforting to know that despite Apple's success OSX remains a poorly supported operating system, somehow demonstrating we're still safely on the fringes of respectable society :-)


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Steve Modica
Re: Globalsan iSCSI initiator vs Synology DS1511+ multipath I/O
on Dec 16, 2013 at 6:37:15 pm

Hi Paul

You're not going to get screaming performance out of a stock FreeNAS kernel for things like AFP and SMB (especially not for video editing). They are setup as stock fileservers.

Steve Modica
CTO, Small Tree Communications


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Jordy Richir
Re: Globalsan iSCSI initiator vs Synology DS1511+ multipath I/O
on Oct 9, 2015 at 6:27:53 pm

Hi Glenn,

I've read this topic and was wondering you still use this setup?

How does it performs now and did you tweak it more?

Is it possible to send me your beta driver so i can test it on my setup?

Thanks


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Glenn Venghaus
Re: Globalsan iSCSI initiator vs Synology DS1511+ multipath I/O
on Oct 9, 2015 at 8:49:33 pm

Hi Jordy,

Sorry but not running the Synology in multipath anymore. Have been using it in my described setup for some time very effectively , with super performance, under the SNS beta driver, but a lot has changed in the last 2 years. Mainly that i had to move my OSX versions (clients and servers) up due to other software requirements. Lately even up to the (crappy osx vista) Yosemite for my Davinci 12 resolve workstation.
The amazing guys (best support i ever had from any software company period) at SNS explained me in detail that it was not possible anymore to keep maintaining that special version they build for me in parallel with the (not compatible) main stream. Very understandable.
So i moved on and now use the Synology's as secondary storage (for volume and not for speed ) and have it regularly sync with a big software raid-0 (for pure speed) self build thunderbolt array on a mac mini server hosted via xtarget to the clients , which get line speed (200 mbps on 2x fast ethernet) . Still for a fraction of the cost of off the shelf systems, which is sort of my thing ;-) But even off the shelfs are getting down in price now, which is a good thing.
So not everything from one system (speed and reliability) but leveraging 2 separate systems. With a high enough sync frequency between the 2 (+ extra offline DR and cloud backups) the risk is minimal and i have been running it nonstop for more then a year now.

Almost upgraded to a trashcan based system but thank god i did not. (just lucky as a placed order on the very first model fell through). Forums are full of issue on the graphics cards (davinci resolve heavily affected), so for now holding on till i "have" to move on and something better comes around. Eyieng multi cpu hackingtoshes like Hp 840's etc , but still not stable enough.
And so far my low cost mac mini render farm still works like a charm. (no thanks to apple as almost had to rewrite everything back to working order which they stupefyingly decommissioned, like the qmaster cluster for example and final cut server , which is still buzzing around here on 10.9.5 thanks to my hacking skills and doing all my automated workflows like nothing on the market)


Anyway i digress. So no. Sorry.


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Steve Chandler
Re: Globalsan iSCSI initiator vs Synology DS1511+ multipath I/O
on Dec 10, 2015 at 3:17:14 pm

Wait, SNS was supplying you with a custom build of globalSAN? Jeez. SNS is pretty rad.


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Glenn Venghaus
Re: Globalsan iSCSI initiator vs Synology DS1511+ multipath I/O
on Dec 10, 2015 at 4:50:48 pm

Yep impressive support and super friendly guys.


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