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Panny HDX900P, shooting 24p, but want to minimize pulldown effect

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Mark Suszko
Panny HDX900P, shooting 24p, but want to minimize pulldown effect
on Aug 10, 2010 at 2:14:16 pm

The boss has decreed all the DVCProHD footage we shoot with our HDX900p's be done in 24p. Our guys are bringing back some stuff that's not optimal-looking because they need to pan faster than you'd like to in that format.

You know, like the old joke: "Doctor, it hurts when I do this..." (Doctor) Well, Don't DO that!"

But I don't have that option.

I am searching for a strategy to set up the camera to meet the 24p requirement but minimize temporal artifacting from pulldown. Also, any tips in FCP to reduce the pulldown in post most appreciated. I'm not well-practiced in shooting this format.


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Ernie Santella
Re: Panny HDX900P, shooting 24p, but want to minimize pulldown effect
on Aug 11, 2010 at 4:17:23 am

Use the shutter set to 'Half'. The shutter helps with the motion blur. (That is normally how to get the 24fps look to be more accurate) The only other option is to suggest shooting at 30fps instead of 24. You get most of the filmlook, but quite a bit less blur.

Ernie Santella
Santella Productions Inc.
http://www.santellaproductions.com


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Mark Suszko
Re: Panny HDX900P, shooting 24p, but want to minimize pulldown effect
on Aug 11, 2010 at 11:57:31 am

"Half" of what? Someone suggested to me setting the shutter to a multiple of 24 like 48. Using synchro-scan, I can get 47.9, and it seems to help. Is there a better shutter setting?


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Ernie Santella
Re: Panny HDX900P, shooting 24p, but want to minimize pulldown effect
on Aug 11, 2010 at 12:45:19 pm

In the menu, you can change the shutter settings. You can make one of the settings HALF. (Which is 1/48) This will make shooting at 24fps similar to the way a film camera operates. In a film camera, the shutter rotates and is only open 1/48 of a sec when shooting at 24fps.

This will tighten up the motion blur you get when shooting at that frame rate.

Here's how to get to the menu.

MAIN MENU (Not the USER MENUT) This is 2nd, deeper menu you get, when you hold down the front menu button for 4-5 sec)
Scroll down to OPERATION, Enter that, then scroll down to SHUTTER SELECT, Enter that and change one of the 6 presets to HALF.

That's it. Then when you turn on the shutter, you can click through the 6 presets and one will be HALF. Use that when shooting at 24 or 30fps for a cleaner, less blurry look.

I hop that helps.

Ernie Santella
Santella Productions Inc.
http://www.santellaproductions.com


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Mark Suszko
Re: Panny HDX900P, shooting 24p, but want to minimize pulldown effect
on Aug 11, 2010 at 2:35:59 pm

Great information, thanks. Any other tips that could help during post?


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Ernie Santella
Re: Panny HDX900P, shooting 24p, but want to minimize pulldown effect
on Aug 11, 2010 at 11:14:36 pm

Mark,
Not much you can do to fix excess 24fps blur in post. You have to shoot it correctly to start.

Maybe one of the edit guru's can chime in as to any post tricks.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Panny HDX900P, shooting 24p, but want to minimize pulldown effect
on Aug 12, 2010 at 2:39:02 am

All I can say is, you'll get used to it. If you're used to shooting 60i or 60p, give yourself about a week and then you will wonder how you ever edited 60Hz.

Ernie's comments are great. You can affect motion blur with the shutter, but when it comes down to it 24p is 24p.

Be patient, stop staring at it so hard, take a step back form the monitor and enjoy.

Are you posting in 24p as in a 24p timeline (removing pulldown on capture), or are you bringing in as 720p60? Do you use much graphics/motion graphics?


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Mark Suszko
Re: Panny HDX900P, shooting 24p, but want to minimize pulldown effect
on Aug 12, 2010 at 3:08:06 am

Mostly our High Def cams do public service spots, highway safety campaigns are a big client, so lots of vehicle movement, dramatic angles, action, and yes, lots of graphics as well. Basically, the most challenging theatrical type stuff plus all the intense graphics work of commercials. I'm trying to chart a course that keeps the quality up and the workflow efficient, and minimizes the blurry artifacting of fast motion. Not too much to ask, right? :-)

What kind of editing workflow would you advise for that in FCP?


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Ernie Santella
Re: Panny HDX900P, shooting 24p, but want to minimize pulldown effect
on Aug 12, 2010 at 3:23:43 am

Mark,
As Jeremy mentioned above, how are you finishing? It sounds like you are shooting and editing for broadcast and not a theatrical 24fps 'film-out'. Correct?

If you're just finishing for TV, then I would edit on a DVCProHD 720/60 preset (actually 59.94) and let the camera do the 24 frame 3:2 conversion. That's all I do, I just edit for broadcast and DVD. It's simple. The HDX900 does all the work for you as it records. You just shoot 24fps with Half shutter and the camera adds the 3:2 pulldown as it records. Then, digitize into FCP using the DVCProHD 720/60 preset and you're all set.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Panny HDX900P, shooting 24p, but want to minimize pulldown effect
on Aug 12, 2010 at 3:49:17 am

[Ernie Santella] "hen, digitize into FCP using the DVCProHD 720/60 preset and you're all set."

I was going to recommend that workflow, but I'd capture to ProRes. You can then do your graphics @ 60p and have them as smooth as possible if that's you like/want.

But, action movies are shot @ 24p. The jitter will become more normal to your eyes, it will just take some getting used to if you've been working @ 59.94 for most of your editing life.

Jeremy


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Mark Suszko
Re: Panny HDX900P, shooting 24p, but want to minimize pulldown effect
on Aug 12, 2010 at 2:00:03 pm

Should I shoot in 24pA (advanced) with that workflow or not?


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Panny HDX900P, shooting 24p, but want to minimize pulldown effect
on Aug 12, 2010 at 2:08:57 pm

I'd stay away. I thought you said you were working in 720?


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Mark Suszko
Re: Panny HDX900P, shooting 24p, but want to minimize pulldown effect
on Aug 12, 2010 at 2:35:32 pm

I prefer to work in 720/ 30p, as everything we do is for broadcast and most of it still winds up in SD for final format, but I'm being ordered to shoot in 24p. So, would it work better, set to 24p or 24p Advanced, with the half shutter on, and with the pro-res workflow?


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Mark Suszko
Re: Panny HDX900P, shooting 24p, but want to minimize pulldown effect
on Aug 12, 2010 at 2:39:15 pm

Also, is there any difference/ advantage in loading the footage into the editing system via the Panasonic HD deck using firewire direct, or thru the deck, via SDI thru the AJA IO box, or by hooking a firewire cable direct to the camera for ingest? Those are my three options for ingest, and maybe one or the other of those methods does a better job?


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Panny HDX900P, shooting 24p, but want to minimize pulldown effect
on Aug 12, 2010 at 3:02:39 pm

[Mark Suszko] "Also, is there any difference/ advantage in loading the footage into the editing system via the Panasonic HD deck using firewire direct, or thru the deck, via SDI thru the AJA IO box"

I'd go SDI to ProRes. Firewire is limited to DVCPro HD only. DVCPro HD is a great acquisition codec, but ProRes (besides being 10bit) is more suited to the rigors of editing. DVCPro HD can fall apart pretty fast. I'd use the deck and a hardware capture card to get the best out that image.

Jeremy


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Panny HDX900P, shooting 24p, but want to minimize pulldown effect
on Aug 12, 2010 at 3:00:57 pm

[Mark Suszko] " So, would it work better, set to 24p or 24p Advanced, with the half shutter on, and with the pro-res workflow?"

I'll ask again, are you going to edit on a 24p timeline or 60p?

24p Advanced is 1080. You can put the 1200 or 1400 deck in 23/24 mode and get 1080 23.98 psf out of the SDI, but then you are confined to editing on a 24p timeline.

Since that camera is a 720p camera, I'd stick to shooting 720p, but that's me. I'm a huge fan of 720p anyway.


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Mark Suszko
Re: Panny HDX900P, shooting 24p, but want to minimize pulldown effect
on Aug 12, 2010 at 8:28:48 pm

Thanks for hanging in there with this, Jeremy. I'll use whatever timeline setting the gestalt here thinks will keep the artifacts low and the graphics quality high, while being reasonable for reder times and etc on an octo-core mac.

My final outputs will be:

1) A DVCProHD tape master

2) An HD file for FTP, burned to a DVD-R as data, that retains the 24p "look"for 30-second spot work.

3) Various dubs down to a center-punched 4:3 and a letterboxed 4:3 SD dub to (ugh) BetacamSP tape for the folks in the hinterlands.


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