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24 frame judder

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Bryan Maslin
24 frame judder
on Dec 7, 2009 at 2:56:07 pm

I'm aware of the risks posed with excessive motion when shooting 24 frame images. I just shot a commercial where the client asked for some moderately quick pans and tilts. It all looked smooth in the monitor while shooting, but when we got to post there was quite a bit of "stepping" on those moves.

Two questions: can anything be done about it now, post-wise? And in the future, how do I get around this if I want the film look of 24 fps and quicker camera moves? Do I settle for 30fps?


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Ernie Santella
Re: 24 frame judder
on Dec 7, 2009 at 3:29:56 pm

Did you use a 1/2 shutter while shooting? That is the only way to make 24f shooting look correct. Also, what type/brand monitor were you using on the shoot? Some my not show you exactly what you are shooting.

Ernie Santella
Santella Productions Inc.
http://www.santellaproductions.com


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john sharaf
Re: 24 frame judder
on Dec 7, 2009 at 3:44:21 pm

You're probably looking at a 24p timeline playback. When pull down is inserted on output everything will improve, motionwise, and it will look like it did on the monitor when you were shooting.

JS



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Bryan Maslin
Re: 24 frame judder
on Dec 7, 2009 at 4:22:58 pm

Thanks Ernie and John. I should have clarified. I shot with a 1/48 shutter, viewing through a Panasonic BT-LH900 monitor. The spot is being posted in Final Cut Pro, and was edited in a 30 frame timeline for broadcast. My editor tells me that the motion artifacts were more pronounced after being downcoverted.


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john sharaf
Re: 24 frame judder
on Dec 7, 2009 at 4:43:00 pm

Bryan,

It sounds like you did everything right. The "judder" that the editor is referring to is normal. I suspect that he has never seen/edited 24p before. I've had this problem before with 30p when viewed by editor familiar only to 60p!

Granted that for production you should have a bigger monitor than a 8", preferably the 17" or I use a 23". This way there are no surprises later with motion or focus. But I understand the economic necessities.

When in doubt, of course, you must test the variables all the way through your chain. Most rental houses will allow you to comne in a nd shoot test in their shop for no charge.

JS





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Wolf Austad
Re: 24 frame judder
on Dec 7, 2009 at 11:03:28 pm

The CCD in the Varicam and the HDX-900 (and probably other cameras too) doesn't really read out the image with the same 'blur' as film when shutter time is 1/48 sec. The CCD appears to have a shorter shutter time. Try setting the shutter to between 200 and 220 degree on a Varicam or 1/40 sec on HDX-900. Downside is those speeds are not flicker free.

On Panasonic's LCDs the image often look less stuttery than on other monitors. I've had this problem before, shooting 24P on a Varicam and the Director + Client viewing on a Panasonic BT-LH 1700W. During shooting and playback Dir + Client are all happy, then after downconverting there's full panic and frenetic finger pointing... ;-)



Aasulv Wolf Austad, fnf
Director of Photography
Los Angeles based


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Bill Paris
Re: 24 frame judder
on Dec 14, 2009 at 6:43:51 pm

Bryan,

Another thing you need to check..... are you viewing 23.98 footage in a 29.97 timeline? If so, you will see bad frame judder. Edit the footage in 23.98, then use a good hardware based card ie Kona 3 Card to do the proper pull down on it's way to tape (29.97). This works for me!

Bill Paris


Bill Paris
Producer/Director of Photography
Crew Hawaii Television
http://www.crewhawaii.com


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Bryan Maslin
Re: 24 frame judder
on Dec 16, 2009 at 4:03:04 am

Hi Bill -

My editor tried your solution, and for output to tape, it's a definite improvement - thanks! We're now trying to create SD digital files for upload / broadcast, and DVDs, where we won't be going through the AJA card / breakout box. Any thoughts on 29.97 workflow for that?


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