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James Granell
720p60 59.94fps outputting question.
on Apr 15, 2009 at 2:57:19 pm

This might be a silly/simple question, but thought it was worth to get a 2nd opinion.

A project was shot using the VariCam @ 720p60. It was then edited and given to me for an BetaSP output. When I analyze the final Quicktime file for output, I notice that the format states DVCProHD 720p60 with a frame rate of 59.94fps. Though, the DP said the project was shot at 24p (23.98).

I have made outputs before of the material shot using 720p60 with a frame-rate of 23.98 with pull-down added on output without any problem in the past. But, am a little unclear of what the process would be with the 720p60 59.94fps finished file.

My initial guess would be to have the editor reload the 720p60 and have it extract the extra frames on ingest, re-edit and output the finished file at 23.98, and then I should be set, am I correct? Or, is there a conversion that can performed to the 720p60 59.94fps finished material after the fact?

Our facility is Apple based using the latest version of the Final Cut Studio 2 Suite. Any advice or info provided would be greatly appreciated. I thank you for your time and assistance in advance.

Best Regards,

James G.
Upstate NY, USA

3.0 GHz Quad Mac Pro
4 GB Ram,
1 TB RAID Offline Media Drive
4 TB RAID Online Media Drive
FCP 6.0.5
Blackmagic Decklink HD Extreme


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john sharaf
Re: 720p60 59.94fps outputting question.
on Apr 15, 2009 at 3:11:51 pm

James,

Not sure what your question is? The rational for shooting at 24p is this; either you are planning for filmout, where you need to isolate the 24 frames for conversion to 24 frames of film, or you are seeking a film "look" for presentation on a video display and you seek to save storage space (24 is only 40% 0f 60).

Once your project is "output" to Beta SP, which is an interlaced format, you'll never be able to recreate the original 24 frames (for the purpose of filmout), but the display will still have the film "look"

As regards the quicktime, either the DP was wrong and the project was shot at 30p or 60p or the editor chose not to create a 24p project and instead digitized at 59.94. The original tapes will tell you the frame rate in the user bits if you want to find out for sure.

JS




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James Granell
Re: 720p60 59.94fps outputting question.
on Apr 15, 2009 at 3:29:33 pm

Hi JS,

Thank you for your response. Sorry if I wasn't too clear. It's a 30sec TV Spot, this current project.

Yes, it was shot using the VariCam setup as DVCPRO HD 720p60, and set to a frame rate of 24p (23.98fps). (where the DP was going for that "Film-Look" you mentioned.

When the editor cut the piece, he said that due to the fact that there was so many close-ups, he did not bring it in 720p60 @ 23.98fps, but instead brought it in 720p60 @ 59.94fps. He said it was left that way, due to keep the camera movement & transitions as smooth as possible.

My question, I would say, is the settings to output 720p60 @ 59.94fps to BetacamSP in the usual 8-bit NTSC 29.97 format that the facility is asking the BetacamSP master format.

When I try to conform 59.94fps to a 29.97fps sequence, I notice that playback is not very smooth as the original plays.

So I was wondering what the best means of outputting the finished piece of 720p60 @ 59.94fps to BetacamSP would be. Would the editorial need to be re-ingested to the format of 720p60 @ 23.98fps, or is there a means of doing such after the fact to the finished piece?

I have attempted to use Final Cut Pro's DVCProHD Frame Rate Converter Tool without much luck; as have I made an attempt with Cinema Tools' Conform feature. I would imagine these attempts failed due to the fact that this is a finished piece and the frames that the converter would remove are not able to be identified, and the Conform feature would simply re-order the frames and stretch the piece to be double+ the original length.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Best Regards,

James G.
Upstate NY, USA

3.0 GHz Quad Mac Pro
4 GB Ram,
1 TB RAID Offline Media Drive
4 TB RAID Online Media Drive
FCP 6.0.5
Blackmagic Decklink HD Extreme


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gary adcock
Re: 720p60 59.94fps outputting question.
on Apr 15, 2009 at 3:55:44 pm

[James Granell] "When I try to conform 59.94fps to a 29.97fps sequence, I notice that playback is not very smooth as the original plays.
"


have you tried just dropping the finished piece into a NTSC 8bit timeline and rendering it out.

you are cause all of these issues yourself.

1) your editor is a fool. Always edit at the frame rate it was shot at.

59.94 frames will give you a better conversion to SD since ever frame will convert to a single field, by trying to work at 29.97 you are causing more unnecessary headaches.

If your video card supports downconversion in realtime- let it do the work.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

Inside look at the IoHD
http://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php




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James Granell
Re: 720p60 59.94fps outputting question.
on Apr 15, 2009 at 5:56:55 pm

Hi Gary,

[gary adcock] "you are cause all of these issues yourself.

1) your editor is a fool. Always edit at the frame rate it was shot at."


Thanks for your message. However, I do not believe "name-calling" is ever an appropriate tactic to solve issues. Thought that might just be me who feels that way. (no matter how good it makes one feel about him/herself)

[gary adcock] "59.94 frames will give you a better conversion to SD since ever frame will convert to a single field, by trying to work at 29.97 you are causing more unnecessary headaches."

In the interim, prior to the last post within this thread, Yes, I have dropped the 720p60 @ 59.94fps sequence into an 8-bit Uncompressed NTSC sequence (29.9fps timebase) and have rendered it out.

After reviewing it rendered out, I spoke to the original editor and learned that there were a couple shots that had speed adjustments (75-80% of original for some shots) that were added in post, and this could explain the less-than-smooth nature that I am seeing after I render them out. It's not too distracting, but if compared side-by-side to the original, it is noticeable.

Anyhow, It looks like this would be the way I will have to output this spot. Go figure, being brought in last minute on a project that I did not have any prior knowledge about, something always is bound to slip up. (guess that's what I get for coming back in after a week out of the office). I will certainly try to assert myself in the next few spots that are in the works as to ensure that workflow is QC'ed from start to finish.

Thanks again for everyone's advice, and please feel free to comment, if you feel compelled.

Best Regards,

James G.
Upstate NY, USA

3.0 GHz Quad Mac Pro
4 GB Ram,
1 TB RAID Offline Media Drive
4 TB RAID Online Media Drive
FCP 6.0.5
Blackmagic Decklink HD Extreme


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gary adcock
Re: 720p60 59.94fps outputting question.
on Apr 15, 2009 at 6:10:15 pm

[James Granell] "After reviewing it rendered out, I spoke to the original editor and learned that there were a couple shots that had speed adjustments (75-80% of original for some shots) that were added in post, and this could explain the less-than-smooth nature that I am seeing after I render them out. It's not too distracting, but if compared side-by-side to the original, it is noticeable. "


Your editor did not use any motion blur or motion compensation? That is pretty basic concept when adjusting the timing of content outside of the parameters it was shot in,

Also what are you judging the motion on? On a true SD monitor or are you just looking at the computer screen (which has no interlace compensation) or an LCD?


Like I said before - if your hardware can do this it is better to let your video card handle the downconversion,


gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

Inside look at the IoHD
http://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php




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john sharaf
Re: 720p60 59.94fps outputting question.
on Apr 15, 2009 at 6:12:00 pm

James,

In the future, it might be helpful for you and the editor to know that the frame rate converter is only useful in creating slomo effects when inserted into a 24 or 30p timeline.

It sounds like your editor used AE or some other means to try to slo down footage that already had an pull down in it, thus the stuttering.

When 60p material is FRC'ed to 24p timeline it is slowed down 2.5x or when into a 30p timeline 2x and the motion is very nice. This is why it's so important to coordinate production flow with post.

I tend to agree with Gary's assessment of your editor and refrained from saying the same thing in my previous post because I do tend to say these things in person, but try to be more civil on these forums.

As a cameraman who has been called many times with similar issues, I can tell you, it's always the editor at fault, and usually because he/she is afraid to ask the appropriate questions and then has to cover his ass.

I've had situations where camera people I know have lost accounts because the editor erroneously maintains to the end it was the camera person's mistake.

JS



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James Granell
Re: 720p60 59.94fps outputting question.
on Apr 15, 2009 at 9:58:57 pm

Gary & John,

Thank you again for your responses. Always helpful and appreciated.

gary adcock "Also what are you judging the motion on? On a true SD monitor or are you just looking at the computer screen (which has no interlace compensation) or an LCD?"

I am unclear as to if it had any frame-blending or motion treatment. In the suite I am in, I have both an Apple Cinematic Display, as well as a Sony Trinitron Broadcast monitor receiving a component signal coming out of a Decklink HD Extreme. It's only on a couple of the video edits during playback, not every piece in the final version.

gary adcock "Like I said before - if your hardware can do this it is better to let your video card handle the downconversion,"

Absolutely. The Decklink HD Extreme has worked beautifully in the past for performing the down-convert as well as all my previous ingest/outputs. Whether it's been Onlining/finishing Documentaries for broadcast or previous TV Spots shot using the VariCam 720p60 @ 23.98fps with the pulldown added upon output to the Tape Masters. It was just this one project, where it was 720p60 @ 59.94fps and where I noticed a little inconsistencies that deviated from the expected work-flow.

john sharaf"I tend to agree with Gary's assessment of your editor and refrained from saying the same thing in my previous post because I do tend to say these things in person, but try to be more civil on these forums.

As a cameraman who has been called many times with similar issues, I can tell you, it's always the editor at fault, and usually because he/she is afraid to ask the appropriate questions and then has to cover his ass."


Yes. Certainly there was a communication issue, where it was not kept in check where it should have been, as to avoid it getting this far. Though,

Again, as to reiterate from my first post, it might have been a silly question to ask, as to the method for output, as dropping it into an 8-bit Uncompressed NTSC sequence was the process I started with. But when I noticed inconsistencies, my usual rule is always to double/triple check what I can and not to make assumptions.

john sharaf"I've had situations where camera people I know have lost accounts because the editor erroneously maintains to the end it was the camera person's mistake. "

And this will certainly something discussed at the next meeting.

Thank you very much for your time, and assistance thus far, Gary and John. Very much appreciated.

Best Regards,

James G.
Upstate NY, USA

3.0 GHz Quad Mac Pro
4 GB Ram,
1 TB RAID Offline Media Drive
4 TB RAID Online Media Drive
FCP 6.0.5
Blackmagic Decklink HD Extreme


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