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PLEASE help with 24p editing mixed with 29.97

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Trevor Styles
PLEASE help with 24p editing mixed with 29.97
on Mar 15, 2010 at 9:07:07 pm

Hello all-I am a newbie to all of this. I have completed filming my movie, of which one camera used was the Panasonic AGDVX100a--shot mostly in 24p advanced mode with an anamorphic 16:9 lens adapter. The other camera used was a Sony VX 2100 shot at 29.97 and 4:3 format.

Now I need to edit the footage...my question---what do I do??? Edit on a 24p timeline...or a 29.97? Do I convert the 4:3 footage to 16:9 using virtual dub, and convert to 24 p...and then edit all on a 14p timeline, and output to a 24p DVD...or do I edit everything on a 29.97 timeline, and add a letterbox after squeezing the footage? (so the 2 sets of footage look the same? Fully realizing that the 24p footage will still "look" dif't because of being filmed on a whole different camera. Do I apply any type of "pulldown...or deinterlacing?"

I am really confused as to how to proceed with this project. Can someone please offer advice?

Once again--main problems---mixed aspect ratios and mixed frame rates.
Thank you!!!


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Noah Kadner
Re: PLEASE help with 24p editing mixed with 29.97
on Mar 15, 2010 at 9:24:03 pm

You can either not remove the 24pA pulldown and put it on a 29.97 timeline- make sure remove advance pulldown is unchecked. Or convert 29.97 to 24p and put it on a 24p timeline with Compressor. Whichever way you go depends on how you want it to look and what you want to do with it.

4:3 I like to leave pillarboxed- i.e. black bars on the sides. That's the best way to preserve the original shot.

Noah

Check out my book: RED: The Ultimate Guide to Using the Revolutionary Camera!
Unlock the secrets of 24p, HD and Final Cut Studio with Call Box Training. Featuring the Sony EX1 Guidebook, Panasonic HVX200, Canon EOS 5D Mark II and Canon 7D.
Watch Formosa- My indie movie shot with the SDX900 and finished with Final Cut Studio.


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Trevor Styles
Re: PLEASE help with 24p editing mixed with 29.97
on Mar 16, 2010 at 2:01:03 pm

Thanks for the reply Noah. My other concern is that it is an Effects heavy film...so I will need to do renders of cuts, and then bring them into After Effects, and then bring them back into my NLE (deciding between Premiere, Sony Vegas 5, or MediaStudio Pro 8--these are the editing programs I have)

So, what I am wondering in regards to that:

On my first cut, do I do my render as UNCOMPRESSED, and then bring that into After Effects. Do I do any kind of field pull down or deinterlacing in After Effects? And then should I create movie as an UNCOMPRESSED file in After Effects...and then bring that back into my NLE? Once he final clip is back on my NLE's timeline, do I do any type of deinterlacing?

What are your suggestions? Thanks SOOO much for the help!!!


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Noah Kadner
Re: PLEASE help with 24p editing mixed with 29.97
on Mar 16, 2010 at 4:51:30 pm

Well first you decide which way you're going 24p or 29.97 which I'd go off of based on which footage format I have more of in my edit. Personally I wouldn't want to bounce an entire film to After Effects but only effects shots.

Noah

Check out my book: RED: The Ultimate Guide to Using the Revolutionary Camera!
Unlock the secrets of 24p, HD and Final Cut Studio with Call Box Training. Featuring the Sony EX1 Guidebook, Panasonic HVX200, Canon EOS 5D Mark II and Canon 7D.
Watch Formosa- My indie movie shot with the SDX900 and finished with Final Cut Studio.


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Trevor Styles
Re: PLEASE help with 24p editing mixed with 29.97
on Mar 16, 2010 at 8:02:35 pm

Okay Noah--I'm going to hit you with EXACTLY what I am doing and trying to accomplish and see if you can steer me in the right direction:
The main camera used was the 24p camera shot mostly in advanced mode. A widescreen anamorphic lens was also used. The "B" camera was shot in 4:3 at 29.97 FPS.
Initially I wanted to output a 24p DVD...at this point I really don't care if it's 29.97 or 24p...I just want to get to editing, and have my footage "work" together to create 1 image that can work together.
The confusion I am having has to do with Field pulldown, and mixing the aspect ratios and frame rates. I want ONE conforming image. I also have a lot of effects to process in After Effects. There is a slight problem with the 16:9 image that the 24p camera has in some of the shots as well--the french flag comes into the shot in some of the footage (just inside the "Action Safe" zone).

I would like a simple straight forward solution to all of this. I am having troubles with all the different issues at hand. Since most of my footage is 24p, would you convert the 29.97 stuff, and blow it up to widescreen, using Magic Bullet Instant HD and Magic Bullet Frames...and then do one conforming edit on a 23.976 timeline? Do I need to mess with field interpolation or pull down or deinterlacing? I'm sorry to sound like such a "rookie"...but I have never had the tecnical issues that are coming with 24p. I have always shot 29.97, and am finding that there are a host of problems with using mixed frame rates and aspect ratios together.

I guess my question to YOU---how would YOU do the editing? Here are the issues again:
1. Different frame rate footage (24p and 29.97)
2. Different aspect ratios (anamorphic 16:9 using a widescreen lens on the 24p footage, and 4:3 using a Sony VX2100)
3. Matte box flags come into "action safe area" on some of the 16:9 footage
4. Will be doing color correction and HEAVY effects in After Effects. So I will need to do a render from my NLE-bring it into AE, and then do a render there and bring that rendered clip back into my NLE.

Please also touch on compression and pull down if it applies.

I have Adobe Premiere, Sony Vegas, After Effects, Media Studio Pro 8, and all of the Red Giant Plug ins to use.

THANKS SO MUCH NOAH!!! I REALLY appreciate any advice and help!



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Noah Kadner
Re: PLEASE help with 24p editing mixed with 29.97
on Mar 16, 2010 at 9:45:15 pm

Yeah I would cut in 24p- convert the 4:3 29.97 to 24p. Forget about fields/etc- this should be handled automatically by the conversion program.

The 24pA footage should be digitized using the 24p advanced presets in FCP- that is capture DV at 29.97 and remove advance pulldown to derive 24p.

Personally I would just leave 4:3 as 4:3- otherwise it's going to look degraded if you blow it up to 16:9 not too mention you'll be cropping on the tops to fill that 16:9 frame. Just leave it pillarboxed and consider it lesson learned.

Noah

Check out my book: RED: The Ultimate Guide to Using the Revolutionary Camera!
Unlock the secrets of 24p, HD and Final Cut Studio with Call Box Training. Featuring the Sony EX1 Guidebook, Panasonic HVX200, Canon EOS 5D Mark II and Canon 7D.
Watch Formosa- My indie movie shot with the SDX900 and finished with Final Cut Studio.


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Trevor Styles
Re: PLEASE help with 24p editing mixed with 29.97
on Mar 16, 2010 at 11:02:13 pm

Thank you Noah--that answered most of my questions...just a couple more, than I will leave you alone :)

1. I can't leave the 4:3 Pillar boxed...because this is a feature length film (low budget zombie movie) and I need all the footage to look somewhat "close". That being said...what is the best plug in or program to upscale the 4:3 to 16:9? Or....would you leave the project as 4:3...and just add a letter box to the 4:3, and squeeze the 24p footage...I think shrinking the vertical down to 89% and leaving the horizontal at 100% will give the correct aspect ratio. I know this would "shrink" the 24p footage and not use all my pixels...and I may as well have shot 4:3 in that case...but at least that would give me a uniform image without "blowing up" the 29.97 footage, right?

2. So if I convert the 29.97 to 24p...what is the best way to do this? Use Andrew Kramers frame rate converter? Use Magic Bullet Frames? Use Virtual Dub?

3. FX---If I need to bring an edited clip from my NLE into After Effects...should I render out an "Uncompressed" AVI...apply the effects in AE...and then render out another "Uncompressed" AVI...and haul that into my NLE for final picture lock?

What are your thoughts on these issues?

Thanks so much---you are such a HUGE help!!!



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Noah Kadner
Re: PLEASE help with 24p editing mixed with 29.97
on Mar 17, 2010 at 5:59:40 am

1-There's no 'upscale' it's basically you have to crop of the sides- i.e. wreck the original frames. Basically you're hosed if you want 4:3 to fit into 16:9- wish I could give you better news there.

2- Get some demos- it's your eye that counts.

3-Sure that's fine.

Noah

Check out my book: RED: The Ultimate Guide to Using the Revolutionary Camera!
Unlock the secrets of 24p, HD and Final Cut Studio with Call Box Training. Featuring the Sony EX1 Guidebook, Panasonic HVX200, Canon EOS 5D Mark II and Canon 7D.
Watch Formosa- My indie movie shot with the SDX900 and finished with Final Cut Studio.


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Trevor Styles
Re: PLEASE help with 24p editing mixed with 29.97
on Mar 17, 2010 at 9:49:13 pm

Thanks for all the help Noah--

If I choose to, can I just edit my 24p advanced footage on a 29.97 timeline? I have heard that this will play fine on the computer, but when output to a TV, it will appear "jittery" or "strobey"...something about the extra frames...do you have experience with this, and can it be overcome? I am thinking my best bet is to just use a 29.97 timeline.


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Noah Kadner
Re: PLEASE help with 24p editing mixed with 29.97
on Mar 17, 2010 at 10:58:18 pm

You can make a DVD any time you want to- just make a test. But if you've already removed the advanced pulldown from those clips- i.e. they are 24p now- you cannot place them onto a 29.97 timeline.. They would need to be redigitized.

Noah

Check out my book: RED: The Ultimate Guide to Using the Revolutionary Camera!
Unlock the secrets of 24p, HD and Final Cut Studio with Call Box Training. Featuring the Sony EX1 Guidebook, Panasonic HVX200, Canon EOS 5D Mark II and Canon 7D.
Watch Formosa- My indie movie shot with the SDX900 and finished with Final Cut Studio.


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Trevor Styles
Re: PLEASE help -anamorphic widescreen
on Mar 19, 2010 at 2:08:14 pm

Thanks again for your help Noah. I have gone through the footage...it looks like 70% was shot with the Panasonic, so I am going to try my best to edit at 24p, and convert all of the Sony footage. So one major question that is probably going to sound really STUPID:

The Panasonic stuff was shot with a 16:9 anamorphic widescreen lens. So the Frame is "technically a 4:3" frame still, and looks stretched vertically. I have never shot "anamorphic" before. I am editing in Adobe Premiere CS4. Do I now edit on a 16:9 timeline, and "Interpret the Footage" so that the correct aspect ratio is changed...or do I stretch the footage (by resizing the image 133% horizontally) to fill the frame? It seems like all I should have to do is "Interpret the footage" so that my pixel aspect ratio is "Widescreen", rather than the default DV .9 pixel ratio. Your words of wisdom would be most helpful--thanks Noah!


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Noah Kadner
Re: PLEASE help -anamorphic widescreen
on Mar 20, 2010 at 12:03:13 am

Use the anamorphic setting- that will give you the proper 16:9 frame- more info on how this works here:

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/anamorphic/anamorphic185demo.html

Noah

Check out my book: RED: The Ultimate Guide to Using the Revolutionary Camera!
Unlock the secrets of 24p, HD and Final Cut Studio with Call Box Training. Featuring the Sony EX1 Guidebook, Panasonic HVX200, Canon EOS 5D Mark II and Canon 7D.
Watch Formosa- My indie movie shot with the SDX900 and finished with Final Cut Studio.


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