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A Better Progressive Look

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Tim Langston
A Better Progressive Look
on Sep 29, 2010 at 2:32:04 pm

Just a quick question, is there a different look (better look) to 24p or 30p when going up in price say with a more expensive camera?

Thanks,
Tim

Tim Langston
Cryin' Out Loud Productions
Fort Wayne, IN
http://www.colproductions.com


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Dave LaRonde
Re: A Better Progressive Look
on Sep 29, 2010 at 3:07:31 pm

Please define what you consider to be a "more expensive camera". What's the price range you're thinking?

I can think of many better cameras than an HVX 200, but their price tags are stupefyingly high.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Tim Langston
Re: A Better Progressive Look
on Sep 29, 2010 at 3:14:23 pm

I have the HVX200 and also the HPX500, I can not for the life of me get the result that I want out of my 1080p, or 720p, 30p or 24p or 30pn...24pn. All's I want is footage that looks like some of the shows I've seen on HGTV. I know on one of the shows they're using the HDX900, so am I out of my league trying to achive the look of a HDX900?

Thanks,
Tim

Tim Langston
Cryin' Out Loud Productions
Fort Wayne, IN
http://www.colproductions.com


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Kevin Randall
Re: A Better Progressive Look
on Sep 29, 2010 at 3:36:16 pm

Are you sure that progressive is what you're really looking for? What shows on HGTV are you thinking of? Although I have very rarely watched anything on that network, I have a feeling that most of the programs are shot as interlaced, not progressive.


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Dave LaRonde
Re: A Better Progressive Look
on Sep 29, 2010 at 3:50:08 pm

[Kevin Randall] "I have a feeling that most of the programs are shot as interlaced, not progressive."

....or at least at 59.94, aka 720p60.

One thing that will definitely give image quality a BIG shot in the arm is good lighting. If your lighting is just an afterthought out on a shoot, it'll look like it. Lighing when you're outdoors makes all the difference in the world.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Tim Langston
Re: A Better Progressive Look
on Sep 29, 2010 at 4:01:51 pm

The show's I'm talking about are shot 1080p 24p. My p looks like pee. Ha, I have to laugh. Anyway, I'm just trying to get a good solid look to my 24p footage. If I had to describe my footage right now, it looks like cheap tick...tick...tick as the frames go by, almost like a reverse fielding problem, I know there's no fields in progressive. I've been through all the setting on FCP7 and all the settings on my Kona 3, monitoring it different ways, and of course the desktop looks better than the HD output. So, I'm wondering if I have a problem with pulldown, maybe somethings not working right (maybe me).

Thanks in advance for any suggestions or help,
Tim

Tim Langston
Cryin' Out Loud Productions
Fort Wayne, IN
http://www.colproductions.com


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Dave LaRonde
Re: A Better Progressive Look
on Sep 29, 2010 at 4:05:47 pm

I hope you remove the pulldown from 1080p 24 footage before you start cutting!
If you don't, it's time to crack open the FCP manual. Look for Reverse Telecine.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Tim Langston
Re: A Better Progressive Look
on Sep 29, 2010 at 4:28:36 pm

For 1080p 24 I shoot 1080p 24pa and let it remove pulldown on ingest of the P2 card.

Tim

Tim Langston
Cryin' Out Loud Productions
Fort Wayne, IN
http://www.colproductions.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: A Better Progressive Look
on Sep 29, 2010 at 5:20:53 pm

How are you monitoring? Please give specific settings.


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Tim Langston
Re: A Better Progressive Look
on Sep 29, 2010 at 5:31:53 pm

Through the AJA Kona 3 Monitor out into a plasma monitor. Kona 3 output settings are "AJA Kona 3 1080i 29.97 8 bit (1920x1080). I think this was the only output that worked, in 1080 that is.

Tim

Tim Langston
Cryin' Out Loud Productions
Fort Wayne, IN
http://www.colproductions.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: A Better Progressive Look
on Sep 29, 2010 at 5:32:45 pm

And what format/frame rate is your timeline?


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Tim Langston
Re: A Better Progressive Look
on Sep 29, 2010 at 5:36:11 pm

23.98

Tim Langston
Cryin' Out Loud Productions
Fort Wayne, IN
http://www.colproductions.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: A Better Progressive Look
on Sep 29, 2010 at 6:17:34 pm

First, are you sure the pulldown removal worked?

OK, so hit control-q and setup FCp to a AJA Kona 3 DVCPro HD 23.98 easy setup.

Then go to your video output and select 29.97 8 bit 1080i.


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Tim Langston
Re: A Better Progressive Look
on Sep 29, 2010 at 8:07:40 pm

OK, tried that. Still the 24p looks very cheap, or choppy, or strobe like. My test footage is a simple pan across the front yard (not too fast), camera set to 1080 24pa, shutter at 180 degrees.

I did try an ingest with and without pulldown, looked at the clip info and the one with pulldown said 23.98 and the one without pulldown said 29.97.

I'm uploading raw P2 footage to my ftp site (103mb), if anyone wants to look and check my 24pa. Let me know you email and I'll send the address to you.

Tim

Tim Langston
Cryin' Out Loud Productions
Fort Wayne, IN
http://www.colproductions.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: A Better Progressive Look
on Sep 29, 2010 at 8:19:19 pm

editstation AT gmail doot com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: A Better Progressive Look
on Sep 29, 2010 at 9:52:15 pm

That looks exactly like 24p footage to me.


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Tim Langston
Re: A Better Progressive Look
on Sep 29, 2010 at 10:33:18 pm

Thanks, that means the camera is working, must be something with the card....or me.

Thanks again for check that out,
Tim

Tim Langston
Cryin' Out Loud Productions
Fort Wayne, IN
http://www.colproductions.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: A Better Progressive Look
on Sep 29, 2010 at 10:39:47 pm

Yeah, I'm not sure what you're seeing on your plasma as I can't see it, but some plasmas have 3:2 pulldown detection and removal. Maybe it's messing that up so see if you can turn it off. I doubt there's a problem with the card. I'll look tomorrow when I get back to the office, but my guess would be everything is a-ok.

If your video output is set to 29.97, you should see 23,98 with pulldown.

Is this your first time shooting 24p?

I'd try shooting 720p59.94. That might give you the smoother look you're going for. Progressive is progressive. For 24p and 30p, you can adjust the shutter speed to give you more motion blur so that things are more fuzzy when you pan, therefore more 'smooth' but it's up to you/your client's taste.

As with the other comment that was posted here, i would bet that programs shot for HGTV are either 1080i29.97 or 720p60, both giving more traditional 'video' looks.

Jeremy


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Dan Brockett
Re: A Better Progressive Look
on Sep 29, 2010 at 10:35:38 pm

Hi Tim:

Have you read the ASC manual in regards to panning rates? What you may think of as slow may still be considered quite fast from a cinematographers standpoint. The rates to obtain a pan with no strobing are amazingly slow.

Just an idea. There are also a lot of different components in your monitoring chain, I know, I too use the Kona 3. There are your sequence settings and Audio Video setup for FCP, the Kona settings and also there may be settings about pull down or pull up built into your monitor.

There have been many, many shows on broadcast that looked amazing that were shot on your cameras so I don't think it is the camera. I think it is either the rate you are moving the camera or you have something set incorrectly in one of your three monitoring device variables.

And yes, if you are definitely shooting 1080 24pA, you should be ready to go as far as post, no pulldown or reverse telecine needed, I shot two PBS specials on the AG-HPX170 this year using the same settings and it worked like a dream.

Dan

A Producer Who Is Also A DP? Yep, that's Me.

http://www.danbrockett.com


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Chris Tompkins
Re: A Better Progressive Look
on Oct 4, 2010 at 2:37:16 pm

It's the shutter speed. Fast shutter, choppy footage.
@ 24p u should try 1/60 on the shutter with that pan and see what it looks like for you.

Chris Tompkins
Video Atlanta


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Mike Gluckman
Re: A Better Progressive Look
on Oct 5, 2010 at 12:39:39 am

Final Cut doesn't do a very good job of converting 24 to 30fps. Instead of doing a proper 3:2 pulldown it freezes frames. I'm not a post expert, but it sounds kinda like what you described if you were editing 24fps in a 30fps timeline. When you changed your Kona card settings, did you create a new timeline at 23.98? Does your footage still look stroby?



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: A Better Progressive Look
on Oct 5, 2010 at 1:42:08 am

Mike, you are absolutely right, but the way it setup here is that fcp is a 23.98 timeline and the kona adds proper 3:2 pulldown in hardware.


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Tim Langston
Re: A Better Progressive Look
on Oct 5, 2010 at 2:10:52 am

Thanks guys, I haven't given up. I've now imported 30p footage from my Canon 7D and it has the jitters, maybe it is my kona card gone bad???

Tim

Tim Langston
Cryin' Out Loud Productions
Fort Wayne, IN
http://www.colproductions.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: A Better Progressive Look
on Oct 5, 2010 at 2:22:01 am

If it's setup properly, no. If it wasn't working, you'd have no signal.

Your 24p footage was all good. My thought is that you aren't used to progressive video or your plasma isn't setup correctly.

Why not shoot some 1080i footage as a litmus and see if you like it?


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Tim Langston
Re: A Better Progressive Look
on Oct 5, 2010 at 11:44:03 am

I'll check my plasma setup, I also have an old Sony cube monitor setup for checking down conversion to 4x3 which shows the same thing. I guess I'll just move slower and hope that cars or bikers don't go thru the background.

Did the footage I supplied, have almost a double image in the pans? Did it appear to be smooth or was there some chop to it for you?

Tim

Tim Langston
Cryin' Out Loud Productions
Fort Wayne, IN
http://www.colproductions.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: A Better Progressive Look
on Oct 5, 2010 at 1:23:45 pm

After removing the pulldown, there's nothing out of the ordinary.

If you have setup FCP an your Kona properly, you're fine.

It's 24p video. Now, I'd suggest messing with the shutter angle and also shooting a 1080i test to see if you prefer it better.


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Tim Langston
Re: A Better Progressive Look
on Oct 6, 2010 at 6:27:33 pm

As the events unfold....

After a few weeks of going totally nuts about trying to get my 24p to work I visited one of my good friends. He happened to have an AJA Kona LHe card, we ingested my footage into his system and boy did it look different than mine. The frames where more stable and the picture a lot clearer. So I got home and thought I would delete Prefs and all AJA software on the system, did that and reloaded, still same problem. I gave up for awhile then went back at it this afternoon. I tried something new, I ran Firewire to my HPX500 then from there to my Plasma. What a difference, the frames look more stable and the jitters where gone (except for the normal 24p stuff). And 30P looked WONDERFUL! So what does this mean, is there something wrong with my Kona 3? Do I have a setting not right? Software problem?


I'm reliefed to know that I'm not crazy (OK, maybe a little).
Tim

Tim Langston
Cryin' Out Loud Productions
Fort Wayne, IN
http://www.colproductions.com


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Dave LaRonde
Re: A Better Progressive Look
on Oct 6, 2010 at 6:33:07 pm

Y'know, AJA Customer Service has an excellent reputation for getting to the heart of the problem. I'd recommend giving 'em a call.

Make sure you have all your system specs ready.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Tim Langston
Re: A Better Progressive Look
on Oct 6, 2010 at 6:43:26 pm

Yes I agree. They've been very helpful along the way. I do have an email into support.

Man, I feel like a huge weight has been lifted off my shoulders. Now I'm hoping it won't be to hard to get to the bottom.

Thanks everyone for all your help!!!
Tim

Tim Langston
Cryin' Out Loud Productions
Fort Wayne, IN
http://www.colproductions.com


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: A Better Progressive Look
on Oct 6, 2010 at 7:29:38 pm

[Tim Langston] "And 30P looked WONDERFUL! So what does this mean, is there something wrong with my Kona 3?"

Again, I don't think there's anything physically wrong with the card. I do think your settings might not be where they need to be which would affect picture quality.

Again, the easiest way to do this, setup your Kona card using the Aja Kona 3 DVCPro HD 1080 psf 23.98 easy setup. Then make a new timeline and drop your footage in. Like this:



Then after that, choose 1080i29.97 8 bit from the Video Output menu, like this:



Jeremy


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