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Which HD Format is better for greenscreen?

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Christopher Targia
Which HD Format is better for greenscreen?
on May 11, 2010 at 4:02:38 pm

1080i/60i
1080i/30p
720p/60p
720p30pN

will 1080i interlacing cause interlacing artifacts that will hamper chroma keyer, or is the higher resolution worth it?


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Noah Kadner
Re: Which HD Format is better for greenscreen?
on May 11, 2010 at 5:17:08 pm

what about 1080/24 or 720/24. 1080/24p is what the 'big boys' typically use. Interlacing is a complete pain in the a$$ for compositors and why give them 30p = 20% more rendering required when 24p is the right standard.

Noah

Check out my book: RED: The Ultimate Guide to Using the Revolutionary Camera!
Unlock the secrets of 24p, HD and Final Cut Studio with Call Box Training. Featuring the Sony EX1 Guidebook, Panasonic HVX200, Canon EOS 5D Mark II and Canon 7D.
Watch Formosa- My indie movie shot with the SDX900 and finished with Final Cut Studio.


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Dale West
Re: Which HD Format is better for greenscreen?
on May 11, 2010 at 5:51:30 pm

I agree with Noah for the most part. But in the end is it your call or the clients? What will it be when it grows up? I'm not an editor by a long shot but I shoot a lot of green screen and have had to do it in a lot of different formats to satisfy my clients' whims. For TNT Sports I shoot NBA in 1080 60i for their broadcasts. For others it has been 720 24p and recently for God only knows what reason a client
requested 480 (betacam sp) If we could only get a format like that again. It seems it will never die. But I digress....... For all of it the way to keep the post room happy is to give them a nice EVEN background without a bunch of green "splash" on the talent. Spend you time doing a good job with the lighting and they will love you. I try to get a minimum 8-10 feet from screen to talent if I can. I'll take more if I can get it. I use minus green on my backlights. Depending on how it looks I may use 1/2 instead of full to keep from giving them a too magenta backlight. Use your waveform monitor to be sure the light is even. Some guys I know light the subject then the BG others do the BG then the subject. Just use good lighting techniques and more than half the battle is won. Getting back to the light level on the screen. Flip your camera to bars. Note where the green level is on the WFM and try to hit that level on the screen. With my VariCam I have used the Y get to see the change as I pan from side to side. A % or 2 is good.

Dale West Video
North Miami, FL
305-892-1201


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Christopher Targia
Re: Which HD Format is better for greenscreen?
on May 11, 2010 at 8:20:07 pm

The video I shoot is for our website and some dvd release. The main reason I need HD at all is for better keying. I figured using 30fps would be better then 24fps on motion blur, since are more frames per second to draw out accurate pixels, obviously 60fps would be better on that thought process but it did not seem worth the extra file size.

Is this thinking correct?


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John Schaub
Re: Which HD Format is better for greenscreen?
on May 11, 2010 at 7:40:58 pm

I also suggest turning on(up) the shutter to reduce the motion blur.


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Christopher Targia
Re: Which HD Format is better for greenscreen?
on May 11, 2010 at 8:14:33 pm

how high should I turn it up to? I currently shoot 30fps with 1/60.0 shutter speed


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cowcowcowcowcow
Noah Kadner
Re: Which HD Format is better for greenscreen?
on May 12, 2010 at 12:57:05 am

30p vs. 24p has little to do with the motion blue effect as you're thinking of it. Also for web video 24p is better because again 24p = 20% less data=less server space, faster downloads.

Try 24p at 1/60 or higher for sharp motion. But don't go too much higher or things will look staccato. But you can also clearly see the effect on stage. The 'key' to good green screen work is lighting. Nail that properly and keying in post should be a piece of cake. If it's hard, you need to work more on getting an evenly lit and bright green screen, and minimizing spill and contamination. also- what software are you using to key with- also makes a big difference. Though I've keyed shots with the FCP built-in keyer when the lighting was ideal.

Noah

Check out my book: RED: The Ultimate Guide to Using the Revolutionary Camera!
Unlock the secrets of 24p, HD and Final Cut Studio with Call Box Training. Featuring the Sony EX1 Guidebook, Panasonic HVX200, Canon EOS 5D Mark II and Canon 7D.
Watch Formosa- My indie movie shot with the SDX900 and finished with Final Cut Studio.


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Christopher Targia
Re: Which HD Format is better for greenscreen?
on May 12, 2010 at 2:44:25 pm

Although when recording to p2 cards isn't the data storage the same unless you use 30pN or 24pN frame rates?

Also I use the FCP built in keyer with mixed results depending on frizzy the persons hair is. I have been looking to getting my company to purchase dvMatte Pro Studio 3, it looks like it would work great, but does it? What do you guys use to key?


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Jason Jenkins
Re: Which HD Format is better for greenscreen?
on May 12, 2010 at 4:55:41 pm

[Christopher Targia] "Also I use the FCP built in keyer with mixed results depending on frizzy the persons hair is. I have been looking to getting my company to purchase dvMatte Pro Studio 3, it looks like it would work great, but does it? What do you guys use to key?"

Keylight in After Effects works very well.

Jason Jenkins

Flowmotion Media

Video production... with style!


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Shawn Miller
Re: Which HD Format is better for greenscreen?
on May 12, 2010 at 5:21:05 pm

"What do you guys use to key?"

I've used DV Matte Pro and I think it's good for some jobs... but for the bulk of my work, I use Keylight in AE or Conduit. Honestly though (great lighting aside) the best thing you can do to improve your keys is to learn more about the art of keying. Mark Christiansen and Steve Wright have both written very good books on the subject. There's a lot of good information on compositing and color theory in general here, I highly recommend both.

http://www.amazon.com/Effects-Visual-Compositing-Studio-Techniques/dp/03215...

http://www.amazon.com/Compositing-Visual-Effects-Essentials-Aspiring/dp/024...

Thanks,

Shawn



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Christopher Targia
Re: Which HD Format is better for greenscreen?
on May 12, 2010 at 5:29:02 pm

thanks for those links I will look into those books, although I do not have after effects and I don't think my company will be buying me after effects any time soon, it will be hard enough getting them to spend money and any chroma key software, when they thin what I do now is good enough.(that's the problem not working for a real production company)


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cowcowcowcowcow
Shawn Miller
Re: Which HD Format is better for greenscreen?
on May 12, 2010 at 7:17:49 pm

Ah, I completely understand. Funny how companies are sometimes willing to shell out tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars on some things (media production related), but they'll often balk at the prospect of spending one or two thousand on software or hardware. :-|

If your company is willing to throw some training dollars your way, you might consider one of the compositing courses from FXPhd (http://www.fxphd.com/courses). For about $300.00 US, you can take 3 of their 10 week vfx/design/cinematography courses. Although these courses are usually aimed at particular software packages... the techniques, workflows and philosophies of compositing are about 80% applicable to any keying software. And with any luck, you'll also find two other courses that are useful to you in your every day work.
:-)

Shawn



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Christopher Targia
Re: Which HD Format is better for greenscreen?
on May 12, 2010 at 7:58:27 pm

thanks shawn i will look into that!


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John Fishback
Re: Which HD Format is better for greenscreen?
on May 13, 2010 at 12:58:52 am

Don't forget you have a lite version of Primatte in Motion. It's better than FCP's keyer. I'd also add that the color space of the camera will have a lot to do with keying success.

John

MacPro 8-core 2.8GHz 8 GB RAM OS 10.5.8 QT7.6.4 Kona 3 Dual Cinema 23 ATI Radeon HD 3870, 24" TV-Logic Monitor, ATTO ExpressSAS R380 RAID Adapter, PDE enclosure with 8-drive 6TB RAID 5
FCS 3 (FCP 7.0.2, Motion 4.0.2, Comp 3.5.2, DVDSP 4.2.2, Color 1.5.2)

Pro Tools HD w SYNC IO & 192 Digital I/O, Yamaha DM1000, Millennia Media HV-3C, Neumann U87, Schoeps Mk41 mics, Genelec Monitors, PrimaLT ISDN


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Christopher Targia
Re: Which HD Format is better for greenscreen?
on May 13, 2010 at 7:54:32 pm

I don't know I have used that keyer in motion and I really didn't have better success.


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