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Mario Biennarc Sioco
HPX-500 or EX3
on Mar 10, 2010 at 5:07:49 am

Hi Guys, I need an honest answer from you. I hope you can help me decide which camera to get for our company. We have an EX1 and an EX3 and a NanoFlash. We are planning to get a third camera. Would you suggest to get an HVX-500 or stick with an EX3? What is the big edge on both cameras? If you were us, which one would you prefer, considering we do have a nanoflash at hand? In my opinion, I'm eyeing for the EX3 and getting an extra lens or a 35mm adapter kit(letus or brevis) with the money saved from getting the P2. Rather than getting a new P2 camera and spending more on other accessories. But is it worth getting the HVX-500? Would it be considered as an upgrade for us? Because I believe that having the Nanoflash makes the EX3 at par with the HVX-500, right? Hope to hear from you. Thanks.

Mario Biennarc Sioco
Videographer & Video Editor
Gulf Broadcast
Kingdom of Bahrain


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Dan Brockett
Re: HPX-500 or EX3
on Mar 10, 2010 at 3:23:38 pm

In your situation, it would make more sense to buy another EX3. Why introduce a camera that will look so different, use a different media and a different codec?

Dan

Providing value added material to all of your favorite DVDs


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Jeff Regan
Re: HPX-500 or EX3
on Mar 10, 2010 at 3:28:29 pm

If your EX cameras are doing what you need them to do, I don't see any compelling reason to introduce a different look and work flow. The 500 will seem a bit soft if you're used to the EX cameras in 1080.

Adding a 35mm DOF adapter will be a more dramatic difference visually.
I have the Letus Ultimates, but you might want to look at the SG Blade as well.



Jeff Regan
Shooting Star Video
http://www.ssv.com


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Michael Shugrue
Re: HPX-500 or EX3
on Mar 10, 2010 at 5:51:35 pm


Keep it simple. While I think the 500 is a very good camera. If you ever have a problem with one of the ex's and it fails you have a back up. However but EX3 not a true HD camera
its only High Resolution Camera
its only 4:2:0 (pal) color sampling - might not be enough to broadcast demand


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Dan Brockett
Re: HPX-500 or EX3
on Mar 11, 2010 at 1:33:28 am

Hi Michael:

"However but EX3 not a true HD camera"

While the EX-3 does have 4:2:0 color space, it is most assuredly an HD camera. The 500 has 4:2:2 color space but is abbreviated raster unlike the Sony and it is also an HD camera.

Any camera that can shoot 720 or above is technically an HD camera, even a FLIP OR A Go Video camera. Doesn't mean broadcasters will accept footage from it but definitely fits the definition of HD.

Dan

Providing value added material to all of your favorite DVDs


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Michael Shugrue
Re: HPX-500 or EX3
on Mar 11, 2010 at 6:58:57 pm


EX-3 is not 4:2:0 not sure where you read this. All of the white papers express HQ- No where does it say HD and at 35 MBPS.
Sony has selected its words carefully.

From Sony
Specifically designed for use with XDCAM EX camcorders, the PHU-60K hard-disk unit is a
1.8-inch, 60 GB external storage unit with a USB 2.0 interface. Users can achieve approximate
recording times of 200 minutes in 35Mbps HQ (high-quality) mode and 260 minutes in 25Mbps
SP (standard play) mode.

Anyways I am done with this.




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Dan Brockett
Re: HPX-500 or EX3
on Mar 11, 2010 at 7:21:54 pm

Michael:

From the Sony U.S. website press release...
"The PMW-EX3 camcorder employs three 1/2-inch "Exmor" CMOS sensors with over 2 million pixels, the camera was exhibited at the NAB (National Association of Broadcasters) 2008 show. It uses an 4:2:0 MPEG-2 Long-GOP codec recorded to SxS solid-state memory cards. It is branded as a member of Sony's CineAlta family of production equipment. The EX3 offers variable framerate modes, from 1 to 60fps (1 to 30fps in 1080p)...

"All of the white papers express HQ"?
What does HQ (a Sony nomenclature signifying a recording mode) have to do with HD (an internationally recognized standard called SMPTE 709)? The two abbreviations are mutually exclusive.

"No where does it say HD and at 35 MBPS."
From the Sony Product Detail page in their website...
"The PMW-EX3 compact camcorder with an interchangeable lens system incorporates three ½-inch type Exmor™ Full HD CMOS sensors, each with an effective pixel count of 1920 x 1080, delivering stunning-quality HD images in 1080P, 720P, and 1080i HD resolutions."

From the Specs Page for the EX3
"Video Recording Format
MPEG-2 , 4:2:0 Long GOP
HQ mode: VBR, maximum bit rate: 35 Mb/s, MPEG-2 MP@HL
SP mode: CBR, 25 Mb/s, MPEG-2 MP@H14"

I think a bit of reading may clarify these points for you...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rec._709

Dan





Providing value added material to all of your favorite DVDs


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Michael Shugrue
Re: HPX-500 or EX3
on Mar 11, 2010 at 7:52:53 pm


Again were done..
you have your thoughts and the rest us us have ours


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Dan Brockett
Re: HPX-500 or EX3
on Mar 11, 2010 at 8:06:59 pm

Okay, if you think that the EX3 is not a hi-def camera, I give up, I can't convince you and the Sony can't convince you.

Good luck!

Dan

Providing value added material to all of your favorite DVDs


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Jeff Regan
Re: HPX-500 or EX3
on Mar 11, 2010 at 10:17:58 pm

I have my thoughts, as an owner of an EX1, which is the same camera as far as sensors, processing, codec as an EX3. My thoughts echo Dan's, as well as reality--EX3 IS an HD camera, but not 4:2:2 color space.

It is the ONLY 1/2" full raster camera, other than the EX1, that I'm aware of. If a full raster camera is not HD, I don't know what is. Many use the HD SDI output to record externally and are amazed at just how high the resolution is. From a luminance perspective, the XDCAM EX codec is full sample, recording every bit of detail that the full raster CMOS sensors provide. Chroma is sub-sampled to 4:2:0, something most people can't see with their eyes vs. 4:2:0, but computers can discern for compositing, etc.

One could even make the argument that the EX3 is more of an HD camera than an HPX500 due to the full raster native 1080 sensors.

Jeff Regan
Shooting Star Video
http://www.ssv.com


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Michael Shugrue
Re: HPX-500 or EX3
on Mar 12, 2010 at 7:18:42 pm



I do have both cameras actually, I have over 15 cameras. The Ex3 is not Broadcast quality for my clients . I don't care what argument you make about what you think qualifies HD. My clients which include Discovery HD, Sci Fi channel,Lifetime,NBC,CTV,ESPN its 35Mb. Again, you clients may take Ex3 as HD, great mine will not. FP cameras are only allowed 20% for final product and that must be approved.(Underwater) But even underwater they would prefer a HVX-200. 1/2 inch cameras do not qualify for Broadcast 2/3 min. 1/2 inch camera are defined as professional cameras as defined by SMPTE.

again I am done. If you want a Ex1 I sell you ours.


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Joe Henderson
Re: HPX-500 or EX3
on Mar 12, 2010 at 7:32:31 pm



The Ex3 is not 4:2:0 sorry to disappoint all of you. Be careful what you read. Look at the whitepapers from Sony of the Ex3. This is not by not means a broadcast camera. Most HD 2/3inch Cameras not not even a true 4:2:2 in the broadcast market. 1/2 inch no way.


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Dan Brockett
Re: HPX-500 or EX3
on Mar 12, 2010 at 10:29:28 pm

Jeff, are we existing in some kind of alternate reality?

So the EX3 doesn't use 4:2:0 color space in recording to SxS or SD cards? If it doesn't use 4:2:0 color space, what color space do you think it uses Joe? Please provide links to the Sony literature or white papers that substantiate this assertion. Here is the link to the Sony USA specs that clearly show that the camera does record a 4:2:0 color space signal http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/product-PMWEX3/ Right there in the specs page, black and white, clear as day.

And the EX3 isn't HD? Wow, someone should tell Sony and SMPTE about this terrible oversight as well as the Federal Trade Commission because they are obviously breaking the law by falsely advertising the EX3 as an HD camera. http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/product-PMWEX3/

I already provided the link above that outlines specs for SMPTE 709, which clearly state that not only is the EX3 a true HD camera, so is my wife's $150.00 Flip Video Mino HD. If you can provide substantiation to the contrary, I would love to see it. Unless this is just trolling?

Best,

Dan

Providing value added material to all of your favorite DVDs


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Joe Henderson
Re: HPX-500 or EX3
on Mar 12, 2010 at 11:12:29 pm


On Sonys White papers there in no mention of HD. If it was a True HD Signal they would have added HD (NOT HQ)

I am not trying to get in any arguments.

HQ mode: VBR, maximum bit rate: 35 Mb/s, MPEG-2 MP@HL
SP mode: CBR, 25 Mb/s, MPEG-2 MP@H14


HQ mode:
1920 x 1080/59.94i/29.97P/23.98P
1280 x 720/59.94P/29.97P/23.98P
SP mode:
1440 x 1080/59.94i
Recording Frame Rate PAL model HQ mode:
1920 x 1080/50i, 25P
1280 x 720/50P, 25P
SP mode:
1440 x 1080/50i

HQ mode:
1920 x 1080/50i, 25P
1280 x 720/50P, 25P
SP mode:
1440 x 1080/50i

HQ Mode
Approx. 100 min. with SBP-32 (32 GB) memory card**
Approx. 50 min. with SBP-16 (16 GB) memory card
Approx. 25 min. with SBP-8 (8 GB) memory card


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Jeff Regan
Re: HPX-500 or EX3
on Mar 12, 2010 at 11:28:19 pm

Joe,

You are confusing a codec recording mode with HD. ANY 720X1280 or 1080X1920 sensor camera IS an HD camera, even if not a native HD sensor.

HQ mode just denotes a full sample horizontal recording option.
SP mode just denotes a sub-sample horizontal recording option.

Both are HD codecs, just as the EXMOR CMOS full raster 1080X1920 sensors are HD in the EX1 and EX3. A codec need not have the letters "HD" in the name to be considered an HD codec.

If you knew anything about the Cine Alta name, you'd know that it denotes two things, HD and 24 FPS(24 Psf to be exact).



Jeff Regan
Shooting Star Video
http://www.ssv.com


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Jeff Regan
Re: HPX-500 or EX3
on Mar 12, 2010 at 10:20:29 pm

This from Wikipedia re: XDCAM EX:

"It uses an 4:2:0 MPEG-2 Long-GOP codec when recording to SxS solid-state memory cards, but is 4:2:2 internally and a full 4:2:2 signal is present on the HD-SDI out connection." Unquote.

Every broadcast and cable network has its own set of technical requirements and most of them break their own rules. Bit rate alone is not a measure of quality. DVCPRO HD and AVC-Intra 100 in 720/24P Native modes run at only 40Mbps.

I own an HPX2700 and was an HDX900 owner. I certainly believe these cameras are superior to the EX1 or EX3, but the latter two cameras are full raster 1080, and when used in progressive modes, yield very good images. The NBC network show "Trauma" uses F35's and EX3's, Michael Mann's "Public Enemy" used EX3's for some parts of the movie.

How a 1/3" camera like the HVX200 is considered HD, but not an EX1 or EX3 is nonsensical. The original XDCAM HD 1/2" cameras have been used by local market stations for broadcast for years.

I think most anybody would agree that an EX 1 or EX3 output via HD SDI to a separate nanoFlash or KiPro deck would certainly qualify as HD. I prefer 2/3" CCD cameras, but Sony wouldn't have put the "Cine Alta" badge on the EX1 and EX3 if they didn't consider the image quality to be HD.



Jeff Regan
Shooting Star Video
http://www.ssv.com


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Joe Henderson
Re: HPX-500 or EX3
on Mar 12, 2010 at 11:05:18 pm



"Cine Alta" badge on the EX1 and EX3 if they didn't consider the image quality to be HD.(Sure they would if it sells cameras) Again not HD- HQ


And the EX3 isn't HD?( no it is not) Wow, someone should tell Sony and SMPTE about this terrible oversight as well as the Federal Trade Commission because they are obviously breaking the law by falsely advertising the EX3 as an HD camera. http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/product-PMWEX3/



We agree to disagree. Leave it at that.
Back to work.


( FROM ANOTHER ENG'> on Mar 6, 2010 at 1:23:22 pm

but EX3 not TRUE HD camera
its only High Resolution Camera

35MBs is not be enought to standard HD,
its only 4:2:0 (pal) color sampling - not be enought to broadcast demand




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Mario Biennarc Sioco
Re: HPX-500 or EX3
on Mar 13, 2010 at 6:28:48 am

Thanks guys for that argument.As an owner of both EX1 and EX3, they're true HD cameras. In fact the EX3 can output 10bit 4:2:2 HD through the SDI output therefore giving out much superior quality to the HVX500. Sony EX cameras are 4:2:0 when it records through its internal SXS. However when used with an external recorder through the SDI-out, as I said, it can generate a 10bit 4:2:2 HD image.
We use the Nanoflash which can record at a maximum of 8bit 4:2:2 280mbps HD recording. Sony also has the NIPROS/1 (http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/cat-broadcastcameras/cat-xdcam/product-NIPROS%2F1/) which is designed to be for broadcast use. So I therefore conclude that the EX3 is a true HD camera.

Mario Biennarc Sioco
Videographer & Video Editor
Gulf Broadcast
Kingdom of Bahrain


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Dan Brockett
Re: HPX-500 or EX3
on Mar 13, 2010 at 4:54:50 pm

Thanks for verifying that Mario. You, I and Jeff agree that the EX1 and EX3 are true HD cameras but more importantly, as I have been pointing out throughout this thread, both Sony and SMPTE agree that the EX1/EX3 are HD. SMPTE is the engineering organization that defines what HD is and under their definition of HD, the EX1/EX3, as well as EVERY other camera that shoots 720p/1080i/p is HD. End of story.

Why Joe and Michael think that they know better than Sony and SMPTE this is mystery to me. I mean, if Joe and Michael want to, they can pronounce the Sony EX3 is a Pimento Loaf. And that's fine. But the rest of the world will still pronounce it an HD camera. Alternate realities I guess?

Dan

Providing value added material to all of your favorite DVDs


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Barry Lynks
Re: HPX-500 or EX3
on Mar 13, 2010 at 8:43:59 pm

What they may be referring to is pixel duplication. Where the pixels use the information from the pixel next to it. So the pixel is taking a copy of the information not generating the information. So cameras that claim to have 4:2:2 may in fact have them, but they do not generate their own information.(Sony has a better way to describe the design of the HVX-200) They copy it- very common in smaller cameras. Best way go to NAB ask Panasonic about Sonys Ex-3.
FYI anyone can add information to Wikipedia nothing is EVER verified. Best way test yourself and trust no one.
Sony's camera are what they are, No I do not work for Panasonic either.
I also don't like any camera under $ 15,000 at this point. I do like the SRW-9000. That is a HD camera.
I think they are looking at this from a different technical point of view. I have also been told that a F-900 is really at 3:1:1 when recording to the tape( I have never been able to prove this ,but I have heard. Anyways this has been put to bed.
This went off topic.







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Jeff Regan
Re: HPX-500 or EX3
on Mar 15, 2010 at 2:51:10 am

Sony EX1, EX3 do not use pixel shifting. Panasonic HPX200, 200A, HPX170, 500 do, as does JVC 700, I believe. EX1 and 3 are true full raster cameras.

HDCAM is 3:1:1 color space, that's correct. Sony SRW-9000 HDCAM SR camcorder is tape based and 2/3", so not worth the price to me vs. Panasonic HPX3700.



Jeff Regan
Shooting Star Video
http://www.ssv.com


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Galen Yeo
Re: HPX-500 or EX3
on Mar 16, 2010 at 4:40:12 pm

Last time I looked at a Discovery channel deliverables guide - XDCam cameras - which were only 1/2 inch at the time were acceptable for broadcast. FYI.



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Tim Polster
Re: HPX-500 or EX3
on Mar 17, 2010 at 5:18:48 am

Wow, this thread is like a comedy skit!

I have never heard people argue over the EX series' resolution as being too low.

I wonder what the opinion of the HPX or HVX series is?

HD is not a codec. HD is not "broadcast quality" 4:2:2 does not make something HD nor does 4:2:0 exclude a camera from being HD.

Image quality varies, but the title of HD is based solely on image resolution.

If you do not like the EX cameras, no problem. But don't spread mis-truths to make your point.


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Maximilian Dandy
Re: HPX-500 or EX3
on Mar 23, 2010 at 9:04:23 pm

EX3 Resolution is awesome because of its 1/2"CMOS sensor.

Broadcast Standard is 4:2:2-50Mbps and EX3 only 4:2:0-35Mbps.
4:2:2 color reproduction is thick and 4:2:0 is thin.

Have a budget, choose HPX500 : 2/3" CCD, 4:2:2-100Mbps.

Budget concern? Buy EX3 and add Nano Flash for 4:2:2-100Mbps and up.



Cheers,

Dandy
HPX302, HVX202, DVX102
Letus Ultimate with Relay Lens
Jakarta-Indonesia


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Maximilian Dandy
Re: HPX-500 or EX3
on Mar 17, 2010 at 10:11:58 pm

Which XDCAM?
XDCAM, XDCAM HD, XDCAM HD422 or XDCAM EX?


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