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Editing with 720pn footage

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Ray Stark
Editing with 720pn footage
on Jan 17, 2010 at 7:53:46 pm

Having only dealt with shooting/editing 29.97 dv, I want to take a stab at 24p.

My goal is to shoot a short film on the HVX200 (using p2 cards) in the 720pn 24 mode, edit in FCP and output on dvd. Audio is sparse in the project so I will be using a boom mic attached to the camera so audio will be already tied to the video.

I've read many posts about problems encountered, such as editing 24p footage on a 29.97 timeline. Here are my questions:

- Are the files from the P2 cards downloaded into FCP as 24fps (23.98) QT's?
- Should I edit in a 23.98 timeline?
- Once the sequence is finished, do I use Compressor to change it to 29.97 to send to DVD SP?
- Anything else I need to be aware of regarding frame rate/editing?

Thanks for any advice!


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John Fishback
Re: Editing with 720pn footage
on Jan 17, 2010 at 11:16:44 pm

"Are the files from the P2 cards downloaded into FCP as 24fps (23.98) QT's?"
Yes, and you use Log & Transfer to do this.

"Should I edit in a 23.98 timeline?"
Yes.

"Once the sequence is finished, do I use Compressor to change it to 29.97 to send to DVD SP?"
No need to do that. Just use one of the existing Compressor presets. I use Compressor and BitVice for encoding mv2s. The DVD spec requires 29.97 for playback so the encoder sets flags so the actual 23.98 frames get played out at 29.97 (the player adds pulldown). An advantage of this method as opposed to making a 29.97 mv2 is you save space on the DVD. The media is actually 23.98, but the player "sees" it as 29.97.

"Anything else I need to be aware of regarding frame rate/editing?"
Give it a try. You should be good to go.

John

MacPro 8-core 2.8GHz 8 GB RAM OS 10.5.8 QT7.6.4 Kona 3 Dual Cinema 23 ATI Radeon HD 3870, 24" TV-Logic Monitor, ATTO ExpressSAS R380 RAID Adapter, PDE enclosure with 8-drive 6TB RAID 5
FCS 3 (FCP 7.0.1, Motion 4.0.1, Comp 3.5.1, DVDSP 4.2.2, Color 1.5.1)

Pro Tools HD w SYNC IO, Yamaha DM1000, Millennia Media HV-3C, Neumann U87, Schoeps Mk41 mics, Genelec Monitors, PrimaLT ISDN


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Ray Stark
Re: Editing with 720pn footage
on Jan 18, 2010 at 9:00:31 pm

John,

Thanks for your advice! Can I ask what is the best sequence preset for the HVX200 footage shot at 720pn24? Since there isn't a preset for 23.98 should I use the "DVCPro HD 720p24 48kHz" preset? Common sense says "no" since 24 and 23.98 are not the same number...but perhaps it's close enough?

Also, I've seen 24p footage transferred to DVD where pans and other action is blurred or "stuttered." Is this an obligatory byproduct of going between these two frame rates, or can it be avoided?

Which Compressor preset would you favor in this situation (I don't have BitVice)? I'm not familiar with .mv2...that is, outside of the equation for mass X velocity ;) Shouldn't the compressed file be a .mov since it is QT?

I apologize if these are newbie questions.


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Shane Ross
Re: Editing with 720pn footage
on Jan 18, 2010 at 10:29:12 pm

[Ray Stark] "Since there isn't a preset for 23.98 should I use the "DVCPro HD 720p24 48kHz" preset?"

That is the preset you use for 720p24 24PN. That is a 23.98 setting.

[Ray Stark] "Also, I've seen 24p footage transferred to DVD where pans and other action is blurred or "stuttered." Is this an obligatory byproduct of going between these two frame rates, or can it be avoided? "

Depends on the shutter rate that it was shot at too. That can affect this stuttery look. But you can burn a 23.98 DVD...

[Ray Stark] "Which Compressor preset would you favor in this situation (I don't have BitVice)? I'm not familiar with .mv2...that is, outside of the equation for mass X velocity ;) Shouldn't the compressed file be a .mov since it is QT? "

Compressor preset for what?



Shane



GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Ray Stark
Re: Editing with 720pn footage
on Jan 18, 2010 at 11:22:35 pm

Thanks, Shane.

John had previously suggested using one of the existing Compressor presets that "sets flags so the actual 23.98 frames get played out at 29.97." Makes sense to me. But, I didn't know that one of the presets could do this so I was wanting to find out which one he used.

Also, I am only familiar with using .mov files (QT) in DVDSP. In his response above, John mentioned using "mv2" files instead. Is a "mv2" a better option than a .mov when preparing 720p24 footage for DVDSP?

Just wanting to follow the right protocol...


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Shane Ross
Re: Editing with 720pn footage
on Jan 18, 2010 at 11:37:59 pm

[Ray Stark] "John had previously suggested using one of the existing Compressor presets that "sets flags so the actual 23.98 frames get played out at 29.97." Makes sense to me."

Hmmm...not to me. You can't play 23.98 out as 29.97 without a capture card, in which case the card does the pulldown removal.

[Ray Stark] "John mentioned using "mv2" files instead. Is a "mv2" a better option than a .mov when preparing 720p24 footage for DVDSP? "

Just use one of the DVD best quality presets.



Shane



GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Ray Stark
Re: Editing with 720pn footage
on Jan 19, 2010 at 12:34:54 am

Okay...so if I export a 23.98 sequence from FCP into Compressor (using DVD Best Quality) will it automatically add the pulldown so the 23.98 sequence will play back at 29.97?


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Shane Ross
Re: Editing with 720pn footage
on Jan 19, 2010 at 1:17:33 am

Hmmm....I think that if you export a 23.98 sequence to Compressor for DVD compression, it compresses to 23.98 to make a 23.98 DVD, as players play that format. But I admit that I am far from a DVD compression expert.



Shane



GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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John Fishback
Re: Editing with 720pn footage
on Jan 19, 2010 at 4:18:41 pm

Yes. And BTW, the mv2 extension goes on the mpeg-2 file Compressor and other encoders make.



John

MacPro 8-core 2.8GHz 8 GB RAM OS 10.5.8 QT7.6.4 Kona 3 Dual Cinema 23 ATI Radeon HD 3870, 24" TV-Logic Monitor, ATTO ExpressSAS R380 RAID Adapter, PDE enclosure with 8-drive 6TB RAID 5
FCS 3 (FCP 7.0.1, Motion 4.0.1, Comp 3.5.1, DVDSP 4.2.2, Color 1.5.1)

Pro Tools HD w SYNC IO, Yamaha DM1000, Millennia Media HV-3C, Neumann U87, Schoeps Mk41 mics, Genelec Monitors, PrimaLT ISDN


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John Fishback
Re: Editing with 720pn footage
on Jan 19, 2010 at 4:43:17 pm

I did a couple of tests to look at mv2s made by Compressor and BitVice using MediaInfo. (23.98 is shorthand for 23.976.)

Compressor
23.98 chosen as the frame rate in the Video Format tab of the Encoder - mv2 shows as 29.97 with pulldown in MediaInfo
29.97 chosen as frame rate shows as 29.97 with no pulldown.

BitVice
23.98 mv2 shows as 23.98 with no pulldown. DVDSP rejects this mv2 as a non-standard format which it is. DVD players will only play files they recognize as 29.97.
29.97 mv2 shows as 23.98 with pulldown which is why it's accepted in DVDSP

It's my guess (I don't know this for certain) that for a frame rate of 23.98, Compressor is using a similar process to BV, just reporting differently. When BV makes a 23.98 mv2, it really is 23.98, not 23.98 with pulldown flags set.

I hope this makes sense.

John

MacPro 8-core 2.8GHz 8 GB RAM OS 10.5.8 QT7.6.4 Kona 3 Dual Cinema 23 ATI Radeon HD 3870, 24" TV-Logic Monitor, ATTO ExpressSAS R380 RAID Adapter, PDE enclosure with 8-drive 6TB RAID 5
FCS 3 (FCP 7.0.1, Motion 4.0.1, Comp 3.5.1, DVDSP 4.2.2, Color 1.5.1)

Pro Tools HD w SYNC IO, Yamaha DM1000, Millennia Media HV-3C, Neumann U87, Schoeps Mk41 mics, Genelec Monitors, PrimaLT ISDN


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Ray Stark
Re: Editing with 720pn footage
on Jan 20, 2010 at 3:25:12 am

Sorry to open up a can of worms. I just figured by now lots of people would have shot/edited/output HVX200 footage to dvd and it'd be a standard practice. Guess not.

Perhaps my question was too difficult. All I'd appreciate knowing is how best to export a 720pn24 sequence from FCP into DVDSP so that it will play on any plain ol' dvd player. No capture card. Nothing fancy, other than a basic G5 with Final Cut Studio.

I'm hearing conflicting answers. Has someone done this? Anyone? Bueller??


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Tom Brooks
Re: Editing with 720pn footage
on Feb 4, 2010 at 11:13:58 pm

Ray,
Let's get back to basics. If you shoot 720pN24 on an HVX200, you may use the DVCProHD 720p24 Easy Setup. Log and Transfer will create 23.98 mov files and your sequences will be 23.98.

When you output for DVD, the best way is to export a Quicktime Movie, "same as source", and then compress that using Compressor. The setting to use is "DVD 90 Minutes Best Quality." Compressor will automatically encode this in a way that is good for DVD and for DVD Studio Pro. It will make an .m2v file. Choose Dolby Digital Professional 2.0 for the audio. You can make a custom Dolby Digital preset with dialog normalization set to -31dBFS. This will make a file with the .ac3 extension. Those files are brought into DVD Studio Pro as assets and placed in the DVD tracks.

You will have nothing to do with 29.97 in this process, although as John says, you may be able to discover that the encoded m2v file is indeed 29.97. Don't worry about it.

As far as stuttering, strobing goes, you may have to adjust your shooting style to avoid fast pans.
- Tom



Final Cut Pro 6.0.5, Mac OS-X 10.5.6, Quicktime 7.6, Adobe Prod Prem CS4, G5 Quad 2.5, Kona-LHe V6, 8.5GB RAM, Nvidia GeForce 7800-GT 256MB, G-RAID 2x1TB FW800, 6TB RAID-5 (Enhance E8-ML, Highpoint 2322), Panasonic HVX-200P P2. Also MBP 17" Core 2 Duo 2.5, 4GB, GeForce 8600M GT 512MB.


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Ray Stark
Re: Editing with 720pn footage
on Feb 20, 2010 at 12:35:26 am

Tom, thanks for the great, straightforward info.


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