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AVCIntra-Prores and Coloring Workflow

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Max Karli
AVCIntra-Prores and Coloring Workflow
on Jul 21, 2009 at 11:47:46 am

Hello Everyone.

Hopefully i'm posting at the right place! We are going toward a big shoot and the DP had a question to which I could not answer with certainty.

We will be shooting with a panasonic in HD, the camera is XXX-2700 (I don't remember exactly, but I'm sure about the number :) ). The shot material will be copied on a hard drive and then copied to the editing suite with Final Cut Pro using the Log & Transfer.

The question is the following, the DP has set the camera in ways that he will be able to work in the coloring in post. I thought we'd go to the coloting with the edited material in ProresHQ. I told him that the avcintra and the prores should be the same. But now I'm nnot sure. Do you guys think that we would need to make a conformation?

Is there a way to control the way it gets encoded in Prores during the Log&Transfer?

Does anyone have suggestions?

Thanks in advance!

Max



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: AVCIntra-Prores and Coloring Workflow
on Jul 21, 2009 at 2:57:28 pm

[Max Karli] "Is there a way to control the way it gets encoded in Prores during the Log&Transfer?"

You can choose ProRes or ProRes HQ. AVC-Intra is unforutantely not supported natively in FCP at this time. The transcode process from AVC-I to ProRes is of the utmost quality and you lose nothing.

[Max Karli] "Does anyone have suggestions? "

We shoot A LOT of AVC-I and are continually blown away by the images we are getting. We shoot with the HPX-2000, and I have heard rave reviews of the 2700. You should get great material.

Let me know if you have any more specific questions.

Jeremy


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Max Karli
Re: AVCIntra-Prores and Coloring Workflow
on Jul 21, 2009 at 3:03:33 pm

Thank you Jeremy!

Actually yes I do have one last question. I'd love to reassure our DP that when we go to post the AppleProresHQ will be great for Color Correction!

We had a small situation on another film shot on RED as for economical reason we did not go back to the raw footage but corrected the Prores... He was not happy at all. Of course one some sequences he was able to color correct the raw and the difference is HUGE.

So basically the question is: Is it ok to color correct the prores or would we have a real gain by conforming the AVC intra!

Thanks again!

Max


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Matt Gerard
Re: AVCIntra-Prores and Coloring Workflow
on Jul 21, 2009 at 3:19:41 pm

[Max Karli] "I'd love to reassure our DP that when we go to post the AppleProresHQ will be great for Color Correction!"


About as good as you can get for FCP.


[Max Karli] "We had a small situation on another film shot on RED as for economical reason we did not go back to the raw footage but corrected the Prores... He was not happy at all. Of course one some sequences he was able to color correct the raw and the difference is HUGE. "

This is a loaded question that brings up a number of factors. What was the RAW Red ftg converted to for the edit? Probably some inferior 8bit codec that doesn't handle color correcting well. Was the colorist any good? Was the PRORES that you refer to Standard Prores or Prores HQ? Not questioning anything, just bringing up some things that might have caused other issues.

[Max Karli] "Is it ok to color correct the prores or would we have a real gain by conforming the AVC intra! "


You can't edit AVC-Intra in FCP. So, you can't conform it in FCP. There probably is a way to convert it to uncompressed HD quicktimes and edit/color correct those, but I hope you got a boatload of storage space and computer horsepower.

Depending on whom you ask, I think that AVC-Intra was not created as a post production codec. It was meant as an aquisition codec to be converted/unwrapped/rewrapped to a post-friendly codec. That is the way you MUST use it within the FCP workflow at this time.

Good luck, I love our HPX2000 and shooting AVC-Intra. Images are beautiful, and I LOVE SQUARE PIXELS!!!! (AVC-Intra100, that is)


Matt

Its more fun to ride a slow motorcycle fast than a fast motorcycle slow...


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Max Karli
Re: AVCIntra-Prores and Coloring Workflow
on Jul 21, 2009 at 3:37:04 pm

Well two things:

For the Red Story. The person in charge of the transfers from RAW to Prores did it believing that we go back to raw for the color correction. So he did a *one light* on all the raw material. We then had a ProResHQ material. The Colorist was very good in at Digimage, a big lab in Paris. I think they work on Lustre Systems. Anyway, the money ran dangerously out and we decided to skip the conformation. The DP was a bit mad for not having all the latitude he wanted, specially on the high contrasts.

As for the next shoot, we're running some tests next week, I just wanted to be a bit more sure of what I'm talking about.

Thanks very much for the inputs!


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: AVCIntra-Prores and Coloring Workflow
on Jul 21, 2009 at 5:22:07 pm

[Max Karli] "I'd love to reassure our DP that when we go to post the AppleProresHQ will be great for Color Correction! "

Yes. The quality (in my eyes) is very very nice. I would be hard pressed to see anyone that would be disappointed with the wuality, consdiering it was shot correctly.

[Max Karli] "We had a small situation on another film shot on RED as for economical reason we did not go back to the raw footage but corrected the Prores... He was not happy at all."

Totally different camera and workflow. Are you guys shooting in FILM REC mode on the 2700? Give me more info on how exactly the DP set it up.



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Shane Ross
Re: AVCIntra-Prores and Coloring Workflow
on Jul 22, 2009 at 12:17:34 am

For 1080 material, you really don't want to use ProRes HQ...but rather the normal ProRes. HQ was designed for 2K and 4K...the RED stuff.

http://forums.creativecow.net/faq/applefinalcutpro#75



Shane



GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD...don't miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: AVCIntra-Prores and Coloring Workflow
on Jul 22, 2009 at 3:55:25 pm

[Shane Ross] "HQ was designed for 2K and 4K...the RED stuff. "

Or anything that starts with a bit rate of 10 bit or higher, such as AVC-Intra.



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Max Karli
Re: AVCIntra-Prores and Coloring Workflow
on Jul 27, 2009 at 5:53:44 am

Hi!

Sorry I did not come back earlier we're bit under pressure here.

Anyway, I asked the DP and yes he is filming in Cine Rec. He explained thann to me everything he was doing, but I wouldn't be able to reproduce everything here.

As for the postproduction of the material... What about the new fcp? :D

I ordered a couple of upgrades right away, hopefully it will arrive today and we'll run some test about the avc-intra native editing! Which will be a bit in contradiction with one of the replies here above saying that the AVC was not a post production codec!

As for the Prores and RED story. We went in a lab this morning to check the HDcam we received. Some dark scenes were a bit noisy and the guy from the lab started moaning about the prores without knowing that we had edited and mostly color graded in prores! My Dp went all crazy about it! So now he doesn't want to hear about it for the post production of the actual show we're shooting.

I talked to my editor about the possibility of editing in avc-Intra. She said why not but she's afraid it might be "goppy" and not frame by frame as Prores...

Help :D

Thanks again for all your inputs!



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: AVCIntra-Prores and Coloring Workflow
on Jul 27, 2009 at 2:33:30 pm

[Max Karli] "As for the postproduction of the material... What about the new fcp? :D "

You can now bring in AVC-I natively to the FC Suite, but all rendering will be done to ProRes HQ as there's no AVC-I encoder. THe codec that comes with FCS3 is a decoder only.

[Max Karli] "Which will be a bit in contradiction with one of the replies here above saying that the AVC was not a post production codec! "

I have to disagree with that statement. DVCPro HD was the first native in camera codec that we were able to edit. We had DV and dv50 on the SD side. DVCPro HD was designed to be recorded on camera to tape, then decompressed in hardware via a VTR. In this decompression, you were able to get really great results. When the software workflow came, DVCPro HD, while being a very light and edit friendly codec with very decent quality, started to show that it was not an editing codec for some people (some people really liked it). AVC-I on the other hand, was completely designed form the ground up to be a true tapeless codec. 10 bit, full raster, I frame codec @ 100mb/sec. WHile it is still compressed, I believe that this codec was made to edit.

[Max Karli] "So now he doesn't want to hear about it for the post production of the actual show we're shooting. "

SO what does he want to do?

[Max Karli] "I talked to my editor about the possibility of editing in avc-Intra. She said why not but she's afraid it might be "goppy" and not frame by frame as Prores... "

The I in AVC-I stands for Intra, as in intra frame recording, as in I-frame. I-frame is discreet compression per frame as opposed to Long Gop. So no, AVC-I is not goppy, it is quite the opposite.

Jeremy


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Paul Halluch
Re: AVCIntra-Prores and Coloring Workflow
on Sep 12, 2009 at 5:39:42 pm

"We shoot A LOT of AVC-I and are continually blown away by the images we are getting."

every time i transcode footage from avc i to apple prores i lose ALL the quality. im shooting on the hpx 300. any suggestions please?


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: AVCIntra-Prores and Coloring Workflow
on Sep 13, 2009 at 3:40:14 pm

[Paul Halluch] "any suggestions please?"

I answered in your other post.


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