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My New HPX-170 & shooting modes

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Allen Zagel
My New HPX-170 & shooting modes
on Apr 4, 2009 at 2:27:37 pm

Hello Panasonic - Good bye Sony (VX2000 sold and the DSR-250 soon to be sold) ;-) Those full size DVCAM tapes were costing a small fortune! ugh! ;-) Could have paid for 3/4 of 1 64gb card this year already.

Okay I'm waiting for my 170 to arrive (hopefully next week).

Couple of questions, because I'm brand new to both the 170 and HD.

I plan to do most of my shooting @ 720p. My question involves the P vs PN mode and the 30p/60i frame rates. I do 2 major (and different) types of shooting. My technical stuff is shot w/no audio from fast moving trains. These videos are for computer playback only. Also training and safety 'films' usually to DVD (no VHS anymore) but sometimes computer playback.

2nd major type is music vids for some bands, shot indoors or outdoors (goes on DVD). Plus some advertising work interview and B-roll, (internet playback), and tourist/railfan DVD's.

I thought I read somewhere about shooting fast motion and interview type stuff like 720P for faster motion and 720PN for stuff that's not fast motion.

Also between 30 and 60 FPS. Unless I'm wrong I believe the 30 is P and 60i? Which is better for what type of shooting?

I also bought 2-64gb P2 cards and will be ingesting the files into my early 2008 McBook Pro using the Duel Adapter, and working in Studio 2 (FCP6x)

Thanks for your help. I'm sure I'll have more questions as this is a whole new field for me.

Allen
http://www.vimeo.com/az

ASX Media Group, Inc.
http://www.asxvideo.com
NEW DVD - Europe, Trains-n-Trams


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Michael Sacci
Re: My New HPX-170 & shooting modes
on Apr 4, 2009 at 11:41:46 pm

720 is always Progressive, no matter what frame rate you use.

PN vs P is just how the progressive frames are written to the cards. WIth PN (N=Native) you only record the actual frame rate, so if you set the camera to 30PN it only records 30 Frames, 24PN only records 24 Frames. If you set the camera to 30P the camera records each frame twice, so you have 60 frames but only 30 different frames. 24P records every other frame either twice or three times. So there are 24 unique frames but some are recorded 2 or 3 times (2:3 pulldown) these redundant frames can be removed on transfer into the NLE program.

So why record in PN, simple you got a lot more record time on a P2 card. Any "p" framerate gets you about 1 min/GB where as 30PN gets you 2 min/GB and 24PN gets you about 2.5 min/GB.

But 720P@60P gives you 60 unique frames and would probably give you the smoothest motion.



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Allen Zagel
Re: My New HPX-170 & shooting modes
on Apr 5, 2009 at 12:55:57 am

Hi Michael

Wow! Thanks. I never heard it explained that way. My original thoughts was 720p/30 recorded an actual 30 FPS whereas the 60 recorded ½ the picture in every frame so it took 2 frames to make 1 full picture. That's why I didn't understand the PN (native). Remember I'm coming from a Sony VX2000 and DSR-250 both SD so I never messed with frame rates. USA so it was NTSC only @ 29.97fps.

So after all that explanition, if I'm shooting fron the front of a train @ 50-65mph, or say a sports car race, fast motion; 720p/60 would give me the best for motion? There is no 60i or p, Interlaced or progressive? That's what the P stands for in the 720? Or do all the HD cameras shoot progressive now?

I know on the VX2000/DSR-250, it was all interlaced and I had to render as progressive in post for the computer playback stuff.

Shooting a stage play or tourist scenery I'd opt for the PN mode then? Probably the same for the music videos of say a Polka band showing dancers as well.

I understand each senario can be different. I was just trying to figure out an easy way to remember what to shoot at. ;-)

Gee I got a lot to learn! ;-)
Allen

ASX Media Group, Inc.
http://www.asxvideo.com
NEW DVD - Europe, Trains-n-Trams


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Michael Sacci
Re: My New HPX-170 & shooting modes
on Apr 5, 2009 at 6:33:21 pm

720 is always progressive, there is no interlacing at all. 1080 can be interlaced or progressive (1080i vs 1080p) How cameras like the 170 or HVX200 handle 1080p is to split the progressive frame into 2 segments and send it to the card in an "interlaced" fashion (camera settings are 1080i/30pA or 1080i/24pA but then the frame is restored to give you 30 or 24 truly progressive frames. You cannot do 60P on these cameras in 1080 mode, only a few of the highest end cameras can do 1080p60. So there is a different look and feel between 1080i and p. 1080i is 60 individual 1/2 frames (fields) that are interlaced together, each field is a 60th of a second later in time. On 1080p 30 frames are cut in half and delivered one half frame at a time, before being displayed these to 1/2 frames are put back together. So you have 2 1/2 frames that are taken a 30th second part. (wow that makes my head hurt)

60 fps will give you the smoothest imaging. 24P will give more of a cinematic feel since that is the frame rate of film. There is no right or wrong answer, just getting what you and the client want.

You should have gotten the Barry Green book with your camera, that book is worth its weight in gold. Make it your best friend.



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Allen Zagel
Re: My New HPX-170 & shooting modes
on Apr 6, 2009 at 1:07:37 pm

I should be getting the book as well as the 16gb P2. I ordered the thing on March 7th. So I haven't got it yet to see for sure.

Did get a call last week that Panasonic finally shipped them. So hopefully this week.

Thanks for all the explanation. Yea, I can see how your head hurts! ;-)

So basically you're getting 2 frames on all the settings except the PN? hmmmm I'm glad we don't have to figure the long GOP as in HDV! phew!

Thanks again
Allen

ASX Media Group, Inc.
http://www.asxvideo.com
NEW DVD - Europe, Trains-n-Trams


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Michael Sacci
Re: My New HPX-170 & shooting modes
on Apr 7, 2009 at 2:27:42 am

[Allen Zagel] "So basically you're getting 2 frames on all the settings except the PN?" ????? no, not for 60p, or 24p. May want to read the previous posts.





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Allen Zagel
Re: My New HPX-170 & shooting modes
on Apr 7, 2009 at 12:18:20 pm

Sorry, all this is making me go batty! ha ha.

Thanks
Allen

ASX Media Group, Inc.
http://www.asxvideo.com
NEW DVD - Europe, Trains-n-Trams


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