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Help! AVCIntra locks up in log and transfer

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David Coleman
Help! AVCIntra locks up in log and transfer
on Mar 26, 2009 at 1:27:39 pm

I shot an hour long interview and some broll using the AVCIntra codec. Now I'm trying to bring it into Final Cut 6.0.5 on my new PowerPC dual quad core Intel machine. It works slow but ok through the first six minutes then locks up. the viewer in P2CMS does the same thing at the same spot. Trying other AVCIntra clips I find they lock up too. My old DVCPROHD clips don't, however.

I no longer have the original cards--I'm pulling off a firewire drive.

Any way to repair AVCIntra clips on this harddrive?


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Help! AVCIntra locks up in log and transfer
on Mar 26, 2009 at 3:15:23 pm

I don't think it's your hard drive so much as your computer.

AVC-I and ProRes require intel machines.

From this page:

"This application is supported with IntelMac only. Not supported with PowerMac."

Jeremy


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David Coleman
Re: Help! AVCIntra locks up in log and transfer
on Mar 26, 2009 at 9:28:48 pm

Yeah, sorry I meant Intel machine.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Help! AVCIntra locks up in log and transfer
on Mar 26, 2009 at 10:02:01 pm

Okay. Then how is your hard dive formatted? It shoudn't be anything but Mac Os Extended.

Jeremy


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David Coleman
Re: Help! AVCIntra locks up in log and transfer
on Mar 26, 2009 at 10:05:08 pm

Mac OS extended. I've got lots of other footage on the same drive, and plenty of space too. The only clips I have problems with are longish (over 6 minutes) AVC-Intra.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Help! AVCIntra locks up in log and transfer
on Mar 26, 2009 at 10:10:47 pm

You have the latest AVC-I codec installed? have you tried unchecking the remove pulldown option in the Log and trasnfer prefs?

Jeremy


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Help! AVCIntra locks up in log and transfer
on Mar 26, 2009 at 10:25:52 pm

ALso, please double check you drive format in disk utility. 6 minutes is just around the 4GB mark depending on what format you are shooting and the number of audio tracks.

Jeremy


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David Coleman
Re: Help! AVCIntra locks up in log and transfer
on Mar 27, 2009 at 4:16:37 pm

I'm shooting 720/60, AVCIntra. I've checked and the drive is Mac OS extended. It always hangs on the same spots, though not always the same number of frames apart.

I think it may be that the footage was imported (through P2CMS) via FW800 while the IOHD was connected. I've noticed that the IO doesn't play well with FW drives.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Help! AVCIntra locks up in log and transfer
on Mar 27, 2009 at 4:26:37 pm

[David Coleman] "I've noticed that the IO doesn't play well with FW drives."

Yes, it is recommended that you separate the FW bus with the ioHD via an Express34 card for laptops, or a PCIe card on desktops.

Can you watch the whole clip in either P2CMS or Log and Transfer, or does it lock up just while watching it, too? That is, can you view the entire clip without the transfer or does it lock up only on the transfer portion?

What did you use as a card reader?

When you say imported vi P2CMS, does that mean you ingested it in teh database, or simply exported out of P2CMS?

Sorry if some of these questions are redundant, redundant.

Jeremy


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David Coleman
Re: Help! AVCIntra locks up in log and transfer
on Mar 27, 2009 at 4:34:05 pm

No, redundant is ok, I appreciate your willingness to help. I use a PCD20 card reader daisychained to the FW800 drive. I've been copying into the database and then using L&T without exporting. I use compare on ingest and had no errors when copying this footage from the original cards.

I can't watch the whole clip in p2cms' viewer. It hangs up at the same point as L&T, so I know it isn't an FCP problem.

Thanks


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David Coleman
Re: Help! AVCIntra locks up in log and transfer
on Mar 27, 2009 at 4:41:30 pm

Right now I can play the clip until it hangs, write down the timecode where it hangs, force quit and restart FCP, and ingest the clip excluding 30 frames surrounding the hang point. That has worked so far, but it isn't very elegant. I have lots of clips of varying lengths that I'll ultimately back up to tape. I'll use that as my time code master.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Help! AVCIntra locks up in log and transfer
on Mar 27, 2009 at 4:41:30 pm

[David Coleman] " I use a PCD20 card reader daisychained to the FW800 drive."

Okay, so let me get this straight. You have a PCD20, a fw800 drive, and an IOHD on the same bus? how did you have enough ports for that? :-D

I don't usually import to the database, I simply select all and export of out P2CMS with verify. It keeps the card structure of the P2 as it was shot in tact.

What happens if you try and take the video MXF file that is getting stuck and play it in quicktime? Navigate to the offending video MXF file, right (or option) click on it and choose Open With > Quicktime.

How big is the offending file? If you have ingested via P2CMS, it's probably it's own MXF file now, correct? Any chance you can upload a problem file? I'd like to check it out.

Jeremy


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David Coleman
Re: Help! AVCIntra locks up in log and transfer
on Mar 27, 2009 at 4:54:56 pm

Okay, so let me get this straight. You have a PCD20, a fw800 drive, and an IOHD on the same bus? how did you have enough ports for that? :-D


We mock what we do not understand :D

There's a port on the front and on the back. I may not have explained that the IOHD is new as is the computer, so it explains why I haven't run into this before.

QuickTime has the same problem. I have one I can send you that is about 34MB. How do I get it to you?


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Help! AVCIntra locks up in log and transfer
on Mar 27, 2009 at 5:03:34 pm

[David Coleman] "There's a port on the front and on the back"

I was thinking this was on a laptop, not a desktop, hence my cornfusion. Do you still have access to the original P2 cards?

[David Coleman] "I have one I can send you that is about 34MB. How do I get it to you?"

yousendit.com is good (and free) if you don't have a website you can upload it to. Once you upload, just send the link back here.

34MB? That seems very small.

Jeremy


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David Coleman
Re: Help! AVCIntra locks up in log and transfer
on Mar 27, 2009 at 5:08:36 pm

Yeah, it is a short clip. Here's a link to the mxf file. I can't upload the contents folder because dropbox and yousendit only allow files to be sent. No access to the original cards.

http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/224538/0006OO/CONTENTS/VIDEO/0006OO.MXF


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Help! AVCIntra locks up in log and transfer
on Mar 27, 2009 at 5:13:42 pm

[David Coleman] " I can't upload the contents folder because dropbox and yousendit only allow files to be sent."

Simply take the encompassing folder that holds the contents and lastclip.txt and then archive it by right clicking ont he folder and choose 'Compress'. I need to see metadata and everything. Sorry to make you do it again.

Jeremy


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David Coleman
Re: Help! AVCIntra locks up in log and transfer
on Mar 27, 2009 at 5:15:18 pm

Cool, learned something else now.

http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/224538/0006OO.zip


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Help! AVCIntra locks up in log and transfer
on Mar 27, 2009 at 5:35:57 pm

Thanks. First off, this appears to be AVC-I 50, correct?

Also, you say you shot 720p59.94, and not 720p30 over 60?

You are right, this is crashing everything once it gets up to that freeze point.

It appears that part of your file is in tact, but the rest is corrupt. It must be the way it was transferred or offloaded, but I don't know enough yet. Let me look further.

Jeremy


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David Coleman
Re: Help! AVCIntra locks up in log and transfer
on Mar 27, 2009 at 6:12:21 pm

Yes to all your questions: AVC-I 50, 720p 59.94

David


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: Help! AVCIntra locks up in log and transfer
on Mar 27, 2009 at 6:15:40 pm

yeah, it appears that there's some major corruption on this clip. There is information contained within it, but it goes bad along the way.

Unfortunately, I don't know what you can do to fix it, but that doesn't mean there isn't a fix. I am just not aware of it. Your method might be the only way to do it.

The audio is in tact it appears, if that helps at all.

For next time, get yourself a PCIe fw800 card, and separate the ioHD from the rest of your system. Better yet, turn off the ioHD and put the fw800 drive on the PCIe card and the PCD20 on the internal Mac bus (plug it in the front or back, but not both). Then once the transfer is done, you can use the ioHD again. FWIW, someone else just had a similar problem with daisy chaining a PCD20 without an ioHD. I'd say leave the daisy chaining out of it. It doesn't seem to be working, and make sure to have the drivers installed for the PCD20. This is just my guess.

http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/193/874817

I would also suggest in investing in ShotPut Pro. Very easy transfer software that also verifies the transfer process. It's inexpensive.

Jeremy


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David Coleman
RESOLVED: AVCIntra locks up in log and transfer
on Mar 27, 2009 at 8:09:59 pm

Thanks, Jeremy for all your help. I've concluded that it isn't the AVCIntra codec that caused the problems, but copying the files to the FW800 drive while the AJA IoHD was connected to the rear FW800 port.

I've salvaged a lot of the footage and interviews and I'll be doing things differently. Specifically, I'll be getting a PCIe FW card, though I'd like to get the PCD35 card reader while I'm at it.

Thanks again.


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: RESOLVED: AVCIntra locks up in log and transfer
on Mar 27, 2009 at 8:29:46 pm

[David Coleman] "but copying the files to the FW800 drive while the AJA IoHD was connected to the rear FW800 port. "

I wouldn't blame the ioHD, although it is definitely involved in the case. The other example I linked to is when the PCD20 is daisy chained to a fw800 drive. That doesn't seem to work either. Keep the PCD20 on it's own bus, kind of like you would treat an ioHD. You are bound to have less problems as that way the reading and writing from PCD20 to hard drive can keep a one way pipeline instead of overloading the fw800 port. Make sense?

Again, there could be something else going on and I don't know the nitty girtty technical reasons for sure, so this is my specualtion. Keep the PCD20 and fw800 drives on spearate busses, and let's hope you have less problems.

And again, you have the PCD20 drivers installed, correct?

Jeremy



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David Coleman
Re: RESOLVED: AVCIntra locks up in log and transfer
on Mar 27, 2009 at 9:32:29 pm

Yes on the drivers. I see what you mean about having the reader on its own bus, but I'm not sure I agree with your conclusion for three reasons.

1. FW800 is moving data from the card through the computer and back to the hard drive even though it is daisy chained. It isn't like it has to do it in real time, even though it could, since data rates are <100MB/S. It really shouldn't be an issue. If it is, why do they put two ports on the drive to begin with?

2. I haven't had problems with this hookup until now and the only different variables are the codec--which is smaller than DVCProHD--and the IoHD.

3.It seems to me that the Io is an additional, bidirectional stream that introduces further complexity. I know it polls the FW bus even when it isn't actively carrying video info back and forth. You and others on this site have mentioned that it isn't good to combine it on the same bus with a FW drive and I am sure that is based on experience.

Make sense?


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: RESOLVED: AVCIntra locks up in log and transfer
on Mar 27, 2009 at 9:55:14 pm

All points well taken.

[David Coleman] "1. FW800 is moving data from the card through the computer and back to the hard drive even though it is daisy chained. It isn't like it has to do it in real time, even though it could, since data rates are <100MB/S. It really shouldn't be an issue. If it is, why do they put two ports on the drive to begin with? "

Well, that's the drive. Notice there's only one port on the PCD20 (same as ioHD) to encourage you NOT to daisy chain it. When the bus is split, the PCD20 is getting read while the writing is happening to a separate instance and bus. When the drive is daisy chained, all the reading writing and traffic info is flowing back and forth all at the same time down the same pipe that could be causing bus conflicts as maybe the PCD20 is maxing out the fw800 bandwdith similar to an ioHD in order to get the absolute wuickest transfer time. Perhaps the PCD20 is not just a passive device, it is actually controlling the bandwdith it uses, like the ioHD (sorry to keep referring to it, but there are similarities). Again, all speculation.


[David Coleman] "2. I haven't had problems with this hookup until now and the only different variables are the codec--which is smaller than DVCProHD--and the IoHD. "

Perhaps you have been lucky. I don't think the codec will have much to do with it as it's just data coming off of the P2 cards. The computer or fw device doesn't care if it's DVCPro HD, dv, dv50, or AVC-I 100 or 50. It's all just bits and codec shouldn't make a difference, but who knows, maybe it does.

[David Coleman] "3.It seems to me that the Io is an additional, bidirectional stream that introduces further complexity. I know it polls the FW bus even when it isn't actively carrying video info back and forth. You and others on this site have mentioned that it isn't good to combine it on the same bus with a FW drive and I am sure that is based on experience. "

It's based on recommended practices from AJA themselves, starting with the first io, 6 or 7 years ago. The truth is that I don't know excatly what the PCD20 is doing to the fw bus, but you and the other thread I linked to seem to be having issues when there's a drive in the middle of itself and the computer. Just drawing conclusions is all.

Jeremy


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David Coleman
Re: RESOLVED: AVCIntra locks up in log and transfer
on Apr 7, 2009 at 8:32:27 pm

Follow-up: I installed a PCIe Firewire 800 card and connected my FW drive and PCD20 card reader to it. Now the IoHD is on a separate bus. After a few tests I am confident that my problem was overloading the Mac's FW800 bus. I hope this helps somebody else.

David


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Jeremy Garchow
Re: RESOLVED: AVCIntra locks up in log and transfer
on Apr 7, 2009 at 8:40:14 pm

Excellent. Thanks for the follow up, David!

Jeremy


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