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HVX200 frame rate shenanigans

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Raven Plenty
HVX200 frame rate shenanigans
on Mar 2, 2009 at 8:26:43 pm

Just doing some more test clips, and here's what I'm encountering, via both P2 and QT:

• 1080p30 imports fine, 29.97 fps. Great.
• 720p60 and 720p30 both come in as 23.98 fps.

When I open the 720p clips in Quicktime, the frame rate for both p60 and p30 shows as 59.94. When I advance frame by frame, sure enough the frames are following an AABBB pattern, which reflects 24 fps being captured into a 60 fps stream.

With the P2 clips, they are imported (via Log & Transfer) as 23.98 fps.

My second concern is that when I choose PN (on both the camera and the Firestore) I am unable to record at all. The 1394 symbol on the camera's viewfinder doesn't even show up.

I hope my post is clear. Even more, I hope someone is able to help me. Thanks!




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Christopher Wright
Re: HVX200 frame rate shenanigans
on Mar 2, 2009 at 9:14:06 pm

From the manual, supported inputs:
1080 60i(30p, 24p, 24pa), 720 60P (30p, 24P).
While I recognize from your posts that you are new to this and are doing a lot of experimentation, I suggest that you pick a format to work with in the HVX and FS and keep with it. The sweet spot for the camera and FS is 720P 24p. If you are shooting for a tv network use 1080i. I always shoot in 720P. Using the QT mode allows you to edit directly in FCP. If you choose to want the extra log and capture step, shoot P2 mode. There is no difference at all in quality using one over the other. Yes that is how the FS and FCP handle the files. Also the HVX has to be in 720P24P mode to communicate with the FS. pN is for the P2 card. The FS and FCP do the ("pulldown") manipulation of the frame rate.

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Raven Plenty
Re: HVX200 frame rate shenanigans
on Mar 2, 2009 at 9:52:28 pm

You are right, I am in experimentation mode. It's exactly with the aim of choosing a standard workflow for our team that I am doing all this in the first place.

[Christopher Wright] "Also the HVX has to be in 720P24P mode to communicate with the FS"
This is a bit confusing since I did record footage with the HVX set to 720p60p and 720p30p, it just captured as 24p instead. In addition, if 720p30p is a supported input, why am I getting 24p when I choose that setting?

Also, if I choose QT mode, how do I do the pulldown? The 720p clips still show at 60fps in FCP. Do I need to run it through Cinema Tools? When I use P2, pulldown is removed during Log & Transfer.

Your help and patience is greatly appreciated.



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: HVX200 frame rate shenanigans
on Mar 3, 2009 at 12:20:42 am

[Raven Plenty] "• 720p60 and 720p30 both come in as 23.98 fps. "

I would say this is next to impossible. Since it's just data, FCP simply transfers what it's given unless you tell it to remove the pulldown in the log and transfer prefs.

You need to set the cmaera to 720p60 or 720pN30 if you want 720p30 natively. If you want 720p30 over 60 then simply set the camera to 720p30 mode and you will get 720p60 (which is p30 with 2:2 pulldown).

Jeremy


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Christopher Wright
Re: HVX200 frame rate shenanigans
on Mar 3, 2009 at 2:45:37 am

I think Raven is confusing (herself?) with all the options. Again with the FS, you can't have the camera set to the Pn mode. Actually the 30P and 60P do come in as 59.94, the default 1080i does indeed come in at 29.97. Raven actually said that in an earlier post. There also seems to be a lack of basic knowledge of FCP going on here as well, as Raven didn't know how to render a QT out of FCP. That probably means (she?) also might have the wrong (if any) FCP Easy set-up selected in her sequence, which of course will also affect what she is doing and seeing in her "experimentation."

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Jeremy Garchow
Re: HVX200 frame rate shenanigans
on Mar 3, 2009 at 3:22:43 am

Great call, Christopher. Totally missed the part of the Firestore, I don't know too much about it and have never used one.

[Christopher Wright] "Actually the 30P and 60P do come in as 59.94, the default 1080i does indeed come in at 29.97. "

Totally right, but won't the firestore record PN movies if you are in the QT mode?

If recording the MXFs, then yes, it gets recorded as 60p (@ whichever frame rate plus pulldown) and then you have to remove the pulldown during log and transfer if you have that option checked in the L&T preferences.

[Christopher Wright] "That probably means (she?) also might have the wrong (if any) FCP Easy set-up selected in her sequence, which of course will also affect what she is doing and seeing in her "experimentation.""

Totally.

Still, Raven, if the files are coming in @ 23.98 and you are expecting something different you have a setting wrong on your camera. 720p30 over 60 should have 2:2 pulldown {AABB}.

Jeremy


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Christopher Wright
Re: HVX200 frame rate shenanigans
on Mar 3, 2009 at 4:41:46 am

The FS records "Pn" in both QT and P2, but does the frame conversion itself. The HVX camera setting still has to be in 24P (or 30P/60P).

Dual 2.5 G5, IO, Kona LH, IO, Medea Raid, UL4D, NVidia 6800, 4Gig RAM
Octocore 8 GB Ram, Radeon card, MBP, MXO
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Raven Plenty
Re: HVX200 frame rate shenanigans
on Mar 3, 2009 at 4:14:06 pm

[Christopher Wright] That probably means (she?) also might have the wrong (if any) FCP Easy set-up selected in her sequence...

I am a "he" not a "she", but no offense taken whatsoever. I am (temporarily) using the DVCPRO HD 1080p30 Easy Setup, since this is what we are shooting for now.

[Christopher Wright] There also seems to be a lack of basic knowledge of FCP going on here as well, as Raven didn't know how to render a QT out of FCP

It's true that I am in the early stages of learning here. That why I so appreciate the help that is offered in forums like this. In the other post you're referring to, you said to "Render > QT". I tried right-clicking, I searched the menus, I scanned the user manual and could find that command. Did you mean "Export > Quicktime Movie"? I asked for clarification but didn't get any.

[Jeremy Garchow] "if the files are coming in @ 23.98 and you are expecting something different you have a setting wrong on your camera. 720p30 over 60 should have 2:2 pulldown {AABB}"

I agree that 720p30 should have 2:2 pulldown. That makes perfect sense. What doesn't make sense is that the camera IS set the 720p30 and I'm getting 3:2 pulldown (AAABB), i.e 24fps. Same for 720p60. As I've said, when I open the source QT clips in QuickTime and right arrow my way through the frames, I can see the frames repeating: 3 and then 2, 3 and then 2. For the P2 test clips, they are ingested via Log & Transfer with "remove advanced pulldown and duplicate frames" selected, and sure enough the imported footage is 23.98 fps, no matter if it was shot 720p60 or 720p30.

If I don't have the camera set to 720p24, then what other "wrong" setting could be to blame?

[Christopher Wright] The FS records "Pn" in both QT and P2, but does the frame conversion itself. The HVX camera setting still has to be in 24P (or 30P/60P).

I guess what you meant was that the HVX needs to be in 24P or 30P (and not PN), and the FS needs to be set to QT PN or P2PN. I have done a series of test clips using that set up. Guess what? No matter which frame rate I choose when shooting 720p, they are captured as 24 fps. I shot 30 second clips using 720p24, 720p30 and 720p60 using both QT PN and P2 PN. They all (.mov and .mxf) have identical file sizes of 180 MB. They all are 24 fps.

One ray of hope I have: our current FS is loaded with v3 software. I am going to update it to v4 and hope that fixes this.



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Raven Plenty
Re: HVX200 frame rate shenanigans
on Mar 3, 2009 at 8:27:37 pm

I found the answer: On the HVX menu, Scene File > Operation Type > must be set to Video Cam, not Film Cam.

Learning is fun...



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