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CMOS in Panasonic

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Tony Gordon
CMOS in Panasonic
on Feb 27, 2009 at 10:03:42 pm

I too have some issues with the CMOS setup being used in the current cameras, having recently bought a EX1 I have noticed NOISE in the Bright Blue Sky, I have also used the same camera underwater (using 2 x 50w HID Lights) only to see excessive noise. Is there a Firmware Mod that will fix this issue, other than to reduce chroma in the Matrix and then push it back in Post ???

I have 20 years using CCD's yet when I first used the Sony HC3 in a Rescue series it worked brilliantly in Low Light and bright blue sky NO NOISE !

So Why can a small handycam using CMOS out perform the CMOS in these shoulder mounted cameras ??

Who will deliver a CMOS shoulder mounted broadcast camera with 4.4.4 sampling in a tapeless format at full resolution and VFR of 120 FPS ???

Both Sony and Panasonic are introducing NEW Codecs, which introduce new workflows, I cant wait for this to settle down.

I need to acquire a New Tapeless format Camera in the coming weeks for my Broadcast work BUT WHAT is the NEW Broadcast Standard ??

Anyone ??


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Noah Kadner
Re: CMOS in Panasonic
on Feb 28, 2009 at 1:04:57 am

Was that a rhetorical question?

-Noah

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Tony Gordon
Re: CMOS in Panasonic
on Feb 28, 2009 at 10:00:22 am

Negative Noah, I am ready to purchase a new Broadcast Shoulder Mounted Camera and am Perplexed by the Multitude of formats, codecs and storage mediums. I have XD and an hesitant to now Buy P2 as well but it really the Whole Package I want with the features I mentioned.

It seems that Panasonic have some great product, Sony Have also great product , but someone like RED gets it Right by having all the bells and whistles but then does NOT make it suitable for ENG ???



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Matthew Romanis
Re: CMOS in Panasonic
on Feb 28, 2009 at 8:46:34 am

It's funny, never before has there been so many affordable options for acquisition and workflow yet people still find negatives to hang on too.
The great thing about the file based acquisition method is that almost all NLE's have some way of dealing with the footage without the expense of hiring/buying expensive VTR's. The major thing people seem to have a problem getting their heads around is how to pass off the data form the cards. Never before has mass storage cost so little, or being so quick.
Of course some jobs are difficult, like long format multicam jobs, but most of the time the data management is straight forward and with some 3rd party software, virtually automatic.
Even the optical disk based system is flexible, I know some people who have bought several of the low cost readers to pass around their clients.
Also, the cost of these cameras is in most parts 1/2 to 2/3rds the cost we used to pay for SD Digital Betacam.



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Tony Gordon
Re: CMOS in Panasonic
on Feb 28, 2009 at 9:55:23 am

WITH THE UPMOST RESPECT --- That was not the Question Matthew, I am cognisant of the values of solid state and I use SxS cards, what I am chasing is a Camera that offers the criteria I mentioned, THE RED Camera does match these critera, however it is NOT ergeonimic for ENG and is more EFP based...

What I would like to know is WHAT FORMAT the Major Broadcasters are adopting in Europe, Japan, Germany, Netherlands, USA, Australia has Gone with Panasionic for ABC and the commercials are going XD Cam.

However The XD 700 does NOT have VFR and Panasonic is CCD not CMOS (which I prefer the sublties of CMOS as opposed to CCD which is edgy and has sharp lines very VIDEO looking)

SO THE QUESTION IS

Who makes a Shoulder Mounted Camera that HAS VFR up to 120FPS
Uses CMOS Chips 2/3 2.2Million Pixels or better
AND Has a Codec that is almost Uncompressed
Sampling at 4.4.4
And a SOLID STATE RECORDING MEDIUM ????

ANYONE Know of something that comes close ????



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Jan Crittenden Livingston
Re: CMOS in Panasonic
on Feb 28, 2009 at 1:36:23 pm

[Tony Gordon] "What I would like to know is WHAT FORMAT the Major Broadcasters are adopting in Europe, Japan, Germany, Netherlands, USA, Australia has Gone with Panasionic for ABC and the commercials are going XD Cam. "

NBC O&O Stations, CNBC, Telemundo are Going P2, Fox Network has gone P2, last number I saw was something like 350 stations have gone P2 in the US. There 100,000 P2s in the world and 50,000 are in the US.

[Tony Gordon] "However The XD 700 does NOT have VFR and Panasonic is CCD not CMOS (which I prefer the sublties of CMOS as opposed to CCD which is edgy and has sharp lines very VIDEO looking)"

We just introduced the AG-HPX300, it is CMOS, it will deliver at the end of March, 2.2 million imager, with AVC-Intra, DVCPRO HD DVCPRO50, DVCPRO, and DV, it is a shoulder mount camera. And to your comment about CCDs looking very videoish, I think that is more dependent on the design philosophy of the DSP and the inter-relationships of how the detail circuits, the color, and the gammas work together. The Panasonic cameras have never bee accused of looking videoish out of the box, however you can tweek them that way.

[Tony Gordon] "SO THE QUESTION IS

Who makes a Shoulder Mounted Camera that HAS VFR up to 120FPS"



No one.

[Tony Gordon] "Uses CMOS Chips 2/3 2.2Million Pixels or better"

AG-HPX300

[Tony Gordon] "AND Has a Codec that is almost Uncompressed."


Best codec on the market that is in a shoulder mount design today is AVC-Intra. Take a look at the articles in the Jan-Feb issue of the SMPTE journal.

[Tony Gordon] "Sampling at 4.4.4"

The AJ-HPX3700 has a 4:4:4 output and you could record it to an S2 Solid State.

[Tony Gordon] "And a SOLID STATE RECORDING MEDIUM ????"


AJ-HPX3700, P2, but it doesnt do over crank above 30.

[Tony Gordon] "ANYONE Know of something that comes close ??? "

You didn't mention your price range. And whether you need 4:4:4 all the time. You also didn't mention what you do or the types of applications you would be using the camera for. I think the Panasonic cameras offer great flexibility, and a singular customer probably wouldn't use all of the features in a camera because those features don't address his usage criteria, but the camera offer many features.

Tell us more about why you want to do with the camera on a day to day. The 4:4:4 with 120fps overcrank might be a rental cmaer if you only need that every 3 months, but need a good shoulder mounted camera the rest of the time.

To sum it up, I don't see any camera coming with the design spec you have, sorry but rethink how often you need the 2 features that kick out all of the cameras and how often you need them and your selction may become easier.

Best,

Jan



Jan Crittenden Livingston
Product Manager, HPX500, HVX200, DVX100
Panasonic Broadcast & TV Systems



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Matthew Romanis
Re: CMOS in Panasonic
on Feb 28, 2009 at 10:01:16 pm

Hi Tony,
I apologise, my response was meant for a complete different post to do with format bashing. I don't know why it ended up here.

BTW, Do you regard the Varicam as having an edgy video look?



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Mark Shepherd
Re: CMOS in Panasonic
on Feb 28, 2009 at 5:08:33 pm

[Tony Gordon] "I too have some issues with the CMOS setup being used in the current cameras, noticed NOISE in the Bright Blue"

Tony in his first post was asking the question that I am concerned about, NOISE in bright blue sky in CMOS cameras, and why a manufacture cannot build a CMOS shoulder camera that does not have NOISE. I recently saw footage from the Panasonic HDX300 (African blue sky) and made tests with the camera under low light tungston conditions and found high levels of noise in both examples. I was told to don't worry, but wait for the "firmware update" on the real 300 cameras that have serial numbers, not demo cameras... I am not a fan of CMOS cameras, even the RED camera (CMOS) has noise problems in the shadow areas if you underexpose a tad, which is hard not to do with a CMOS rated at 320...



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Jan Crittenden Livingston
Re: CMOS in Panasonic
on Feb 28, 2009 at 10:45:19 pm

[Mark Shepherd] "I recently saw footage from the Panasonic HDX300 (African blue sky) and made tests with the camera under low light tungston conditions and found high levels of noise in both examples. I was told to don't worry, but wait for the "firmware update" on the real 300 cameras that have serial numbers, not demo cameras..."
I repeat that again. The camera that was in Africa was a prototype camera. Wait to make full judgement.

Thanks,

Jan



Jan Crittenden Livingston
Product Manager, HPX500, HVX200, DVX100
Panasonic Broadcast & TV Systems



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