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brandan dennehy
on set p2 backup...
on Aug 22, 2008 at 7:15:36 pm

When backing up p2 footage on set what is a decent cost effective external hard drive set up for backing up files/data. Is it possible to use a couple 1tb 7200 standard hard drives simply as storage devices? I don't want to capture the data to the storage array that we will be editing/ generating effects with. These may be silly questions but I am new to video and p2 in particular. Basically what I need to know is can I use any high capacity/ high speed drive to backup p2 files and then transfer that data later to a Raid configuration for post? And what sort of data transfer rates can I expect when dumping p2 footage onto external drives? Is it easier to log/ capture into FCP on set or simply save the files directly from the p2 cards to the external drives?


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Michael Sacci
Re: on set p2 backup...
on Aug 22, 2008 at 10:29:22 pm

One great solution is the new RAID 1 Firewire drives. This way you are writing everything twice.



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John Paluzzi
Re: on set p2 backup...
on Aug 23, 2008 at 2:45:33 am

I totally agree with Michael. Single enclosure, mirrored drive...that way you always have two copies of the original footage. I never recommend only having the transcoded FCP files and dumping the original P2 wrapper.

As far as time goes, when I fill a 32GB card and dump to a FW800 drive with the MBP, it seems to do about 2X speed. About 16mins for 32 mins of footage.

HPX-2000 w/AVC board
P2 Mobile with AVC board
MBP 10.5


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Dave Neyman
Re: on set p2 backup...
on Aug 23, 2008 at 3:14:17 am

Ditto to the Raid 1 solution. My rule is that the data should be in two places before the P2 card is re-formatted. Just two days ago one drive started giving us trouble on import to FCP. We copied the data from the back up drive and we were good to go.



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Paul Tremblay
Re: on set p2 backup...
on Mar 25, 2011 at 8:04:28 pm

Does anyone have an idea where to get a replacement G-Safe enclosure? Mine was recently damaged in transit and will not power up. I am fairly certain, though, that the two drives are okay.


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Dylan Reeve
Re: on set p2 backup...
on Aug 23, 2008 at 11:38:26 pm

Be aware, copying a file to a RAID 1 device isn't really making two copies of it. The drives can't be used as standalone devices. While it is possible to remove one of the paired drives from the enclosure and use just one, the RAID set it then operating in a 'damaged' mode which is not a great idea at all.

Also, the other danger with RAID is that the data on the drives is inaccessible without the RAID controller. While unlikely, it is possible that the enclosure's RAID controller dies, in which case you need to find an identical controller (sometimes even same firmware revision) to be able to read the data from the drive again. In many enterprise situations RAID controllers are always acquired in pairs, one for use and the other as a spare.

In my opinion, if you want two copies of the media, you should make two stand-alone copies. Something like ShotPut is ideal for that.



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Dave Neyman
Re: on set p2 backup...
on Aug 24, 2008 at 4:17:23 am

[Dylan Reeve] Be aware, copying a file to a RAID 1 device isn't really making two copies of it. The drives can't be used as standalone devices. While it is possible to remove one of the paired drives from the enclosure and use just one, the RAID set it then operating in a 'damaged' mode which is not a great idea at all.

It depends on the RAID. I have a Sans Digital RAID 1 system that makes a copy on each drive. I then have a single drive reader which allows me to access the data while the other drive is archived. It is not operating in 'damaged' mode.



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Dylan Reeve
Re: on set p2 backup...
on Aug 24, 2008 at 6:41:07 am

[Dave Neyman] "It depends on the RAID. I have a Sans Digital RAID 1 system that makes a copy on each drive. I then have a single drive reader which allows me to access the data while the other drive is archived. It is not operating in 'damaged' mode."

If it's a genuine RAID then I assume you need a special interface to mount it (couldn't just stick it in the computer or a regular enclosure). And while the RAID controller might not be complaining when you've only got run disk mounted it is technically in a failure state if it's running with only one device.

Also, if your controller/reader dies and you can't get a replacement that the same then it's possible the data is unrecoverable (or at least not easily recovered).



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: on set p2 backup...
on Aug 24, 2008 at 4:12:37 pm

You can software raid a mirrored set in OSX. No controller necessary.

Jeremy


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Dylan Reeve
Re: on set p2 backup...
on Aug 24, 2008 at 10:57:16 pm

[Jeremy Garchow] "You can software raid a mirrored set in OSX. No controller necessary."

Indeed, a software mirror is less likely to leave you high and dry later on. I'm still not a fan of treating a RAID 1 set as two different copies, it's really not how RAID is designed to be operated.



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John Fishback
Re: on set p2 backup...
on Aug 28, 2008 at 3:36:57 pm

Dylan's comment about RAID 1 made me realize I didn't know how the G-Tech RAID 1 works so I emailed tech support. Here's their reply,

"In the event that one drive fails all data is stored on the second drive and can be accessed through the G-Safe. If the actual G-Safe enclosure failed, these drives could be put into a usb enclosure or into a computer to read the data. Only the G-Safe box knows that the drive is a mirror. The drive will appear as any single drive if you put it into a computer or other device to read. Some devices, like Nas, use special formats on the drives, so you could have problems. The G-Safe is using a standard format that is accessible on any Mac with 10.4 or higher."

John

MacPro 8-core 2.8GHz 8 GB RAM OS 10.5.4 QT7.5 Kona 3 Dual Cinema 23 ATI Radeon HD 2600 XT
ATTO ExpressSAS R30F RAID Adapter, PDE Enclosure with 8-drive 6TB RAID
24" TV-Logic Monitor
Final Cut Studio 2 (up to date)

Pro Tools HD w SYNC IO, Yamaha DM1000, Millennia Media HV-3C, Neumann U87, Schoeps Mk41 mics, Genelec Monitors, PrimaLT ISDN


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Dave Neyman
Re: on set p2 backup...
on Aug 31, 2008 at 3:41:40 am

Thanks John for bringing this to light. I also did research on my system and found out the same thing. If one drive fails the other can be accessed by putting it in any enclosure and will be treated as any other drive. In my case I install my drives on trays that are then put in the raid 1 system. Once the data is mirrored on both drives, I archive one of the drives and put the other drive into a single drive reader to import the media into FCP and then put the quick time files on yet another drive. recently I had one drive go bad. I immediately went to the back up drive, made another copy of that, and then imported the media into FCP without a problem.

I stand by my comment that using a mirrored raid system is the best and most cost effective way to handle the P2 workflow.



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D. Scott Dobbie
Re: on set p2 backup...
on Aug 23, 2008 at 6:18:42 am

[brandan dennehy] "Is it possible to use a couple 1tb 7200 standard hard drives simply as storage devices?"

Yes. If I'm shooting for myself, I use 2 LaCie 500GB FW800 drives (1 copy onto each drive).

If I'm shooting for a client, I use their drive as the primary and then back up to one of mine as a safety. That's actually saved them on one or two occasions.




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jeremey shelton
Re: on set p2 backup...
on Aug 23, 2008 at 5:15:19 pm

Am I mistaken, or can't you dump the P2 data straight from the camera to an external enclosure (as long as it has it's own power supply)? Is there any benefit to transferring to the external via a computer versus the cam?

--
Jeremey @ DI


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D. Scott Dobbie
Re: on set p2 backup...
on Aug 23, 2008 at 7:46:20 pm

Yes, you can offload the files directly from the camera via firewire. The downside is that your camera is down for that duration.

What I do is remove one of the cards from the camera when it's full. I then pop it into my Mac PowerBook G4 (using the PCMCIA slot - though you could just as easily use a Dual Adapter with a newer MacBook Pro) and transfer the footage to a firewire drive while I shoot out the second card. The process then repeats.



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: on set p2 backup...
on Aug 23, 2008 at 8:13:28 pm

The new Shotput P2 edition from Imagine Products (best 50 bucks you'll spend on P2 software) will allow you to choose up to three separate destinations to copy your footage to. It will also do a bunch more things for you as well. I just used it on my first shoot and I like it a lot.

Jeremy


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D. Scott Dobbie
Re: on set p2 backup...
on Aug 23, 2008 at 8:19:16 pm

That's great to know. I'm still making one copy, confirming the exact amount of bytes match, and then making a second copy. It'd be nice to "automate" things a little better.



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Jeremy Garchow
Re: on set p2 backup...
on Aug 23, 2008 at 8:40:15 pm

It has 2 different types of verificaton as well. It's really nice.


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John Fishback
Re: on set p2 backup...
on Aug 23, 2008 at 8:46:36 pm

We use a G-Tech RAID 1 and every evening we back that up to another drive which later becomes the show archive. While traveling, the drives are caried by different people in different cases.

John

Dual 2.5 G5 4 gigs RAM OS 10.4.8 QT7.1.3
Dual Cinema 23 Radeon 9800
FCP Studio 5 (FCP5.1.4, DVDSP4.1.1, Comp2.3, STP1.1, Motion 2.1.2)
Huge U-320R 1TB Raid 3 firmware ENG15.BIN
ATTO UL4D driver 3.50
AJA IO driver 2.1 firmware v23-28
Pro Tools HD w 192 Digital, SYNC IO, Yamaha DM1000, Millennia Media HV-3C, Neuman U87s, Genelec Monitors, PrimaLT ISDN


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John Fishback
Re: on set p2 backup...
on Aug 23, 2008 at 9:14:26 pm

The Shotput P2 makes byte-to-byte verified copies. We've been using P2 Genie, but I believe that's no longer supported. I just got Shotput P2, but haven't used it yet. For backup, we use a G-Tech RAID 1 and every evening we back that up to another drive which later becomes the show archive. While traveling, the drives are caried by different people in different cases.

John

Dual 2.5 G5 4 gigs RAM OS 10.4.8 QT7.1.3
Dual Cinema 23 Radeon 9800
FCP Studio 5 (FCP5.1.4, DVDSP4.1.1, Comp2.3, STP1.1, Motion 2.1.2)
Huge U-320R 1TB Raid 3 firmware ENG15.BIN
ATTO UL4D driver 3.50
AJA IO driver 2.1 firmware v23-28
Pro Tools HD w 192 Digital, SYNC IO, Yamaha DM1000, Millennia Media HV-3C, Neuman U87s, Genelec Monitors, PrimaLT ISDN


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Dave Neyman
Re: on set p2 backup...
on Aug 24, 2008 at 4:21:29 am

Very smart John to separate the drives. I do the same. If ever we have to leave them in a vehicle I put them in different places in the event of a break in. When you consider that you may have 10 days worth of data on a 750 GB drive, it would be a HUGE loss if both drives disappeared.



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