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HVX200a vs. Sony EX1

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Stephen hoyal
HVX200a vs. Sony EX1
on Jun 17, 2008 at 12:02:22 am

Hi all,

If the hvx 200a comparable to the sony ex1 as far as noise reduction. Their is 720 p modes and I think the hvx200a just has 1080i and not p. So how does the 1080i compare with the 1080p of the sony ex1. I have heard that the sony is better with interviews and the panasonic is better with action stuff. I just want less noise and am looking a camera that will have less noise. The 200 that I bought has too much noise and I have learned different methods to reduce the noise but still to much noise.


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Noah Kadner
Re: HVX200a vs. Sony EX1
on Jun 17, 2008 at 12:08:20 am

I looked at an HVX200A this past week at a Trade show- it's tight. Definitely very little noise at full gain and close to the EX1's low light performance. Again I think these are two evenly matched cameras. The EX1 gives you full 1920x1080 imaging but at 35 megabit long-gop. The HVX200's chips are native at 1280x720 but it's full 100 megabit DVCPROHD with a more proven and battle-tested workflow. I'd get a demo of each to be sure.

Noah

My FCP Blog. Unlock the secrets of the DVX100, HVX200 and Apple Color and Win a Free Letus Extreme.
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Jan Crittenden Livingston
Re: HVX200a vs. Sony EX1
on Jun 17, 2008 at 12:13:00 am

The HVX200 as well as the A has 24P and 30P in 1080. It makes a segmented progressive frame,like HDCAM, and lays it over two fields.

The noise on the HVX200A is much quieter. You should take a look.

Best,

Jan

Jan Crittenden Livingston
Product Manager, HPX500, HVX200, DVX100
Panasonic Broadcast & TV Systems



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Stephen hoyal
Re: HVX200a vs. Sony EX1
on Jun 17, 2008 at 5:31:21 pm

Jan,

But 1080 is still not 1080 p and the resolution of 1920x1080 of the sony camera is bigger. It seems that the sony camera might be the better camera right now. The problem, I like panasonic and don't like to change my work flow. I just bought the hvx 200 five months ago and like it alot except the noise features. I had the dvx100 before that. And the panasonic hvx200 needs real 1080p and 3 half chip senors instead of 1/3 chip. It really bugs me that I might have to get another camera because the panasonic camera is not doing the job. I might get the 200a though.



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Jan Crittenden Livingston
Re: HVX200a vs. Sony EX1
on Jun 17, 2008 at 6:38:28 pm

So from your interpretation, Progressive Segmented Frame recording is not 1080P? Then make sure you tell all of the producers in the world that the CineAlter F900 is not 1080P. Okay? That does the very same trick of recording half of the fram on one field and the other half on the next field. But of course it is progressive, and for the rocord, the even our DVX100 does progressive in the very same way.

I would say that most certainly the Sony CMOS image does start with mor pixels, but it is the nature of the rolling shutter and the Long GOP that may get in the way of all of that beautiful resolution. Of cours if you are shooting slow moving objects or interviews they will look consistantly stellar, a little too video-ish for my tastes but it will look very clean and sharp. But move the camera so that there are lots of changes, tall buildings during a pan, uncontrollable flashes of light.

See resolution isn't everything it is the pictures that are and if those pictures are consistant, it is much easier to sell. Pictures that lose too much during a pan and snap back when the camera stops are weird to look at. Pictures that have tilting buildings and two exposures durin the same frame are weird. CCDs do not have these issues. CMOS does.

I actually have a shot where the camera is not moving but the babbling brook running through it is. The HVX200 shot, and I am not talking the 200A, is sharper and has more resolution. But this is due to the Long GOP 35Mbs codec. Do not discount too quickly the power of an I-Frame codec at 100Mbs. And do not for get that DVCPRO HD is a 4:2:2 color space.

Oh and the 200A has about the same lowlight capability as the EX1, so then it is a matter of resolution differences and as I have pointed it is the pictures that you make that sell your work. If your work is inconsistant because the imager is inconsistant, how do you expect your customers to feel about your work.

Best,

Jan



Jan Crittenden Livingston
Product Manager, HPX500, HVX200, DVX100
Panasonic Broadcast & TV Systems



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stephen hoyal
Re: HVX200a vs. Sony EX1
on Jun 17, 2008 at 7:29:34 pm

I do a lot of interviews. More interviews then action. I also like the film image better. I use the Red Rock Micro Unit adapter a lot. But you never know when you need to film action. I do not understand the Sony CMOS image problem. They have more resolution but because of the rolling shutter and the Long GOP it may interfere with the image. What do you mean by this? I just want to learn. I am actually probably going to upgrade to the 200a if the noise problem is better. Also, I have been told that the 720p is better to shoot then to shoot in the 1080 mode on these cameras. And that it would be better to up convert from 720p to 1080p in post and that I would get as good as a picture this way. Is this true?



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Lars Fuchs
Re: HVX200a vs. Sony EX1
on Jun 19, 2008 at 5:17:47 pm

Hi. While I haven't shot with either the EX1 or the HVX200 (Im still shoot SD, dangnabit!), I did a quick search on Pond5 for footage shot with both. Its hardly a scientfic test, but it might help to compare the two with real-world shots. You can check out these two clip bins on Pond5:
HVX-200 and PWM-EX1

These are just a few clips I picked quickly, I didn't try to find shots that are directly comparable, though that would probably be a cool project for later. When I did a search about the same number of clips came up for each, ~492 for the Ex1, ~505, so it might seem that they're equally popular.





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gary adcock
Re: HVX200a vs. Sony EX1
on Jun 17, 2008 at 6:40:53 pm

[Stephen hoyal] "But 1080 is still not 1080 p"

Actually Jan was correct --- the format is called Psf and all internal captures follow that format in 1080. Currently only a very few cameras capture true P in 1080 and everyone of them records that signal to an external device and not one of them is less than 100k (and no red is not in this mix)

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




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stephen hoyal
Re: HVX200a vs. Sony EX1
on Jun 17, 2008 at 8:58:12 pm

This is my situation. If should I go and get the 200a or should I wait for the HPX170. Will the HPX170 have more resolution then the hvx200a. Will it have a larger ship set. Will it be less noiser then 200a. If not then I will see about getting a 200a.

I don' want to invest in a camera only to find out the the HPX170 is going to have higher resolution, a larger chip set and less noise.



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Eric Addison
Re: HVX200a vs. Sony EX1
on Jun 18, 2008 at 5:41:22 pm

I'm in the same spot. I'm looking at moving into HD with a smaller camera, and the EX3 and the HPX170 look like the way to go. I don't like the GOP frame of the EX3, but if the 170 upsamples the image like the 200a does, then I'm not a fan of that - native 1920x1080 is pretty nice.

Jan, when will more details about the 170 be released? Does it upsample the image as the 200a does?



---Eric


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Jan Crittenden Livingston
Re: HVX200a vs. Sony EX1
on Jun 23, 2008 at 11:58:14 am

Hi,

The camera does not upsample anything. The part that is pretty frustrating for me is that people say stuff like this and they sound as if they know what they are talking about and then say they are not in favor of it.

Spatial Offset has been a technology that has been used by Panasonic and others for years, although I think the HVX is the first to use it in the horizontal and vertical domains. The technology has allowed chip cameras to exceed any sort of resolution you could get off of a tube camera because it is able to make resolution in the areas of the CCD where there is no photosensitivity, the registers. By offsetting the red and the blue sensors in both the horizontal and vertical domain you can capture resolution that otherwise would not be captured.

After this is added to the signal you are looking at an effective 1.1 million pixel imager. At this point it is captured in the 1080P domain where all of the camera processing is made and then when it is time for the recoding from it changes to that.

Keep that idea and then address the recording algorithm which is intra-frame, each frame stands on its own. Long GOP is not frame independent resolution and when you have a lot of motion and a lot of detail the long GOPs will throw the res away until the camera comes to a rest, where then everything will snap back.

1080 X 1920 is only good if you have an algorithm that can really handle it and so far the only one I have seen is the AVC-Intra or some uncompressed domain recordings. Keep in mind that AVC-Intra is 10 bit and the load on HD is 1.2Gbs in the uncompressed domain so with the compression that brings it to 100Mbs. Quite the feat and it still looks gorgeous, regardless of motion or details.

Lastly the HVX200A and the HPX170 share the same imager.

Best,

Jan



Jan Crittenden Livingston
Product Manager, HPX500, HVX200, DVX100
Panasonic Broadcast & TV Systems



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Eric Addison
Re: HVX200a vs. Sony EX1
on Jun 24, 2008 at 5:14:00 am

Thanks for the input, Jan. I was only going off what others, who I assumed to be more knowledgeable then I, had told me.

It really does give me some more to think about. The 170 does look like a GREAT camera. Can't wait to do some test shots with it when it's released.


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Chad Johnson
Re: HVX200a vs. Sony EX1
on May 23, 2009 at 3:38:54 am

So I think what Jan is saying is that the EX1 is clearly the better camera.

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Joe Samson
Re: HVX200a vs. Sony EX1
on Feb 23, 2010 at 7:09:02 am

You are forgetting one thing.

The HVX 200a/170 are good for action, and the ex1/3 are good for interviews.

Well, lets see why that is?

The truth is CMOS sensors are unsuitable for moving images.
The problem is something called Rolling Shutter, and the EX1/3 suffer from this.

Sucks to be an early adopter.....


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steve reiman
Re: HVX200a vs. Sony EX1
on Sep 18, 2010 at 6:42:28 pm

I truly recommend the EX1/3. This was the camera who shot most of District9 and all footage of shangdown... easy in post, even perfect match to f23 an f35.
if you know how to refine your pictureprofiles... you are the man!
the difference of both cams is NOT visible on TV... but on the big good old silver screen in cinema.
... and shooting the ex1/3 in 720p outperformes nearly all camcorders in price sectors above we talking about.
cams are just tools... rock your idea...(and go with ex). IMHO thats what i can say. If you are using nanoflash... go with that. quality will be equal to red or better sayd :absolute close to arri.

use infra-red filter on ex if u shoot with hot spots of light!!!

hvx200a is perfect for documentaries and SDTV. I dont touch anymore...
ex1/3 is perfect for action too!

the new epic will cross the line soon hopefully... then i wanna go with that! til then...I rock with ex1!
best,
xteve

1x PMW-EX1, 2x HC-1
http://xteve.dynips.net


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Abiko Bremer
Re: HVX200a vs. Sony EX1
on May 28, 2011 at 1:02:56 pm

Wanted: A good deal on SONY PWM EX1, (Used OK)


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Chad Johnson
Re: HVX200a vs. Sony EX1
on May 28, 2011 at 6:02:41 pm

I have a gently used EX1 I keep as a 2nd camera I could let go of for 5,500.00. Low hours. When my main EX1 gets back from having repairs in a couple weeks I'd probably be up for selling it if you're interested.

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Gerrod Clarke
Re: HVX200a vs. Sony EX1
on Jun 19, 2011 at 7:11:01 pm

so does the Hvx200a do 1080p?
because it says on the menu
1080i/30p
what does that mean?


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