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Quick Reply, Please: P2, MiniDV and matching a JVC HDV Camera

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D. Scott Dobbie
Quick Reply, Please: P2, MiniDV and matching a JVC HDV Camera
on Apr 30, 2008 at 5:15:08 pm

I'm shooting footage tomorrow for a new healthy-living channel. The editor, who is in a different state, wants me to match the format he used.

He says he's got a JVC HDV camera that shoots HD onto a mini-DV tape. He initially was asking me to do the same with my HVX200. I told him that my camera shoots HD onto the P2 cards, but if I shoot to tape it's just SD. I said (am I mistaken?) that mini-DV tapes don't accommodate HD and asked if he was shooting his HD onto a hard drive. He assured me that it was the mini-DV tapes. And he's editing on an Avid Express system and can easily input footage from those. He said that if I shot onto tape it would be fine.

So, I'm concerned.

Does a JVC HDV camera really shoot HD to mini-DV tape?

If I shoot HD to P2, can I then use FCP to import and then output the footage back onto my camera onto the mini-DV tape? I know that will only be SD, but it will still cover my tail if they come back and need HD for whatever reason.

Thanks!

-Scott



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Shane Ross
Re: Quick Reply, Please: P2, MiniDV and matching a JVC HDV Camera
on Apr 30, 2008 at 6:54:16 pm

[D. Scott Dobbie] "I told him that my camera shoots HD onto the P2 cards, but if I shoot to tape it's just SD"

You are correct sir. The tape drive only shoots DV.

[D. Scott Dobbie] "I said (am I mistaken?) that mini-DV tapes don't accommodate HD and asked if he was shooting his HD onto a hard drive."

HDV is a format that shoots HD onto a DV tape. The Sony and Canon formats shoot 1080i to tape, and the JVC shoots 720p. And HDV has roughly the same data rate as DV...3.6MB/s. It is HIGHLY compressed GOP...in the case of JVC, SHORT GOP, vs the Sony and Canon LONG GOP.

[D. Scott Dobbie] "If I shoot HD to P2, can I then use FCP to import and then output the footage back onto my camera onto the mini-DV tape?"

Yes...but why do that? He wants HD. So shoot 720p with a matching frame rate to what he is shooting, and give him the original card dumps so that he can import them. Know that you are shooting DVCPRO HD, and he is shooting HDV...and they are very different formats. However, if he is editing with FCP 6, they can mix on the same timeline without much issue.



Shane



GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD now for sale!
http://www.LFHD.net
Read my blog!


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Noah Kadner
Re: Quick Reply, Please: P2, MiniDV and matching a JVC HDV Camera
on Apr 30, 2008 at 7:35:51 pm

Yike that's a recipe for disaster. Tell him his camera shoot a completely different format than your and it can't even be ingested without a camera or P2 reader. The best thing for you would be to shoot your material 720p, ingest and send him a hard drive with uncompressed 720p. Otherwise he'll never be ever to use your footage. And make sure to charge appropriately for the transfer time too.

Noah

My FCP Blog. Unlock the secrets of the DVX100, HVX200 and Apple Color. Now featuring the Sony EX1 Guidebook
http://www.callboxlive.com



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D. Scott Dobbie
Re: Quick Reply, Please: P2, MiniDV and matching a JVC HDV Camera
on Apr 30, 2008 at 7:51:39 pm

Thanks, Noah.

I'm getting a decent day rate even though I should be done in 5 hours. And I also got the impression that others were lined up if I couldn't take this job, so I'd rather do the deal and eat any transfer time, or pick up the minimal cost of shipping a hard drive back and forth, than lose the gig.

So it's just a question of me calling the editor before or after the shoot to discuss the "new" format...

Yow.



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D. Scott Dobbie
Re: Quick Reply, Please: P2, MiniDV and matching a JVC HDV Camera
on Apr 30, 2008 at 7:45:01 pm

Thanks for the fast reply, Shane.

Actually, delivery was specified as needing to be on the miniDV tape. He's using Avid Express to edit. And he's out in Georgia (I'm in L.A.), so I can't just bring him a firewire drive to transfer from.

I guess I could just shoot it and figure it out after the fact, but I'd hate doing that. I told him the difference and he ended up saying just shoot it to tape, but I'm afraid someone down the line will question it.

They want 720p 30. So I can't even shoot it on tape and hope it looks like what they want, right?

Other thoughts?






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Shane Ross
Re: Quick Reply, Please: P2, MiniDV and matching a JVC HDV Camera
on Apr 30, 2008 at 7:55:47 pm

[D. Scott Dobbie] "Actually, delivery was specified as needing to be on the miniDV tape."

THen they must know that they will be getting a DV tape at DV resolution, NOT HD in any way, shape or form.

Does Avid Express not work with P2? I know that the Adrenaline's do, just drop the MXF video and audio files into a drive and that works. But I don't think Express does. Thank GOD they are phasing that one out.

Shoot HD to P2...then dump that to DV tape. Doable in camera. This way you have HD just in case they go "hey, we want HD."



Shane



GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD now for sale!
http://www.LFHD.net
Read my blog!


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D. Scott Dobbie
Re: Quick Reply, Please: P2, MiniDV and matching a JVC HDV Camera
on Apr 30, 2008 at 8:03:18 pm

I must've misunderstood somewhere. I thought you said the JVC shot HD to tape. It's that tape that I'm being asked to match. I thought he described that as a mini-DV tape. Maybe he just said DV tape and I was thinking about the mini one in the HVX.

So if the JVC uses a different tape altogether, I'd really have a problem giving him a mini-DV one.



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Shane Ross
Re: Quick Reply, Please: P2, MiniDV and matching a JVC HDV Camera
on Apr 30, 2008 at 8:12:09 pm

[D. Scott Dobbie] "I thought you said the JVC shot HD to tape. It's that tape that I'm being asked to match."

The JVC HDV camera shoots the HDV format...which is recorded onto a DV tape. The HVX200 shoots DV ONLY to DV tape...it does NOT shoot HDV at all. It shoots DVCPRO HD to P2 cards. You will not be able to get to him HD on DV tape. Your camera doesn't shoot HDV, it shoots DVCPRO HD. If he wants a format to match exactly what he has, you need to rent a JVC HDV camera and shoot with that. Not Canon, not Sony..which also shoot HDV...but JVC. As stated, the Canon and SOny HD formats are different that JVCs...1080i vs 720p.

[D. Scott Dobbie] "I thought he described that as a mini-DV tape."

It is. The HDV format is recorded on DV tapes. DVCPRO HD is not, and never will be.

You have to talk to him in depth about what your capabilities are. Which might be tough because you yourself aren't sure what you are capable of. You can shoot HD...DVCPRO HD...to P2 cards. DVCPRO HD 720p at 23.98, 29.97 or 59.94..and DVCPRO HD 1080i at 29.97 and 23.98 (after pulldown removed). To tape you can shoot DV at 29.97...period. You are not capable of shooting HDV to match what he has with the JVC. Not unless you rent a JVC camera.


Shane



GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD now for sale!
http://www.LFHD.net
Read my blog!


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Rennie Klymyk
Re: Quick Reply, Please: P2, MiniDV and matching a JVC HDV Camera
on Apr 30, 2008 at 8:24:32 pm

HDV cameras shoot HDV (high Def) format to mini dv tape. Just like a dvd is compressed video (mpeg2) HDV is compressed HD video in the same way SD video is compressed to fit on a dvd.

When he says he wants tape he wants HDV (mpeg2 High def) on the tape NOT SD mini dv. This is the Hi def his camera and all the sony and canon cameras record. The only way you can write HD to mini dv tape is by compressing it with mpeg2 compression first which is what all those other cameras do.

Your HVX200 uses a frame by frame compression which is superior to GOP compression. The only way you can give him what he wants is:

A- rent an HDV camera for the shoot and a JVC would be best.
or
B- shoot 720P on your hvx200 P2 and record your footage onto an HDV deck or camera afterwards and it should be a JVC deck to match the short GOP structure that JVC uses for their HDV format. This should be easy to find but somewhat sad to have to do.

"everything is broken" ......Bob Dylan


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D. Scott Dobbie
Re: Quick Reply, Please: P2, MiniDV and matching a JVC HDV Camera
on Apr 30, 2008 at 11:23:39 pm

Wow - there's a big relief. I made the call I to the editor. What a non-issue that turned out to be. He really wants to get up to speed on P2 so I'm going to just send him a drive with the footage and he'll figure out how to import it. Says the local cable channel just got some HVX200's so he can even check with them if necessary.

Thanks to all three of you for the many suggestions. And Noah, it's good to see you officially listed as a moderator again. I thought it odd that your picture was gone - you still kept contributing as much as you ever had.

-S.



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Noah Kadner
Re: Quick Reply, Please: P2, MiniDV and matching a JVC HDV Camera
on May 1, 2008 at 12:16:47 am

Thanks- it's good to be back up there with my fellow heads. :)

Noah

ps- if you're sending a hard drive make sure they can take Mac OS Extended. :)

My FCP Blog. Unlock the secrets of the DVX100, HVX200 and Apple Color. Now featuring the Sony EX1 Guidebook
http://www.callboxlive.com



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Adam Smith
Re: Quick Reply, Please: P2, MiniDV and matching a JVC HDV Camera
on May 1, 2008 at 4:50:34 am

[Noah Kadner] "ps- if you're sending a hard drive make sure they can take Mac OS Extended. :)"

Why is that? I generally offload straight from camera (HPX500) to an external firewire drive, and the camera formats each partition as FAT32.

Or were you thinking Uncompressed QT?


- - -
Video Photographer / Avid & Final Cut Editor


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Jan Crittenden Livingston
Re: Quick Reply, Please: P2, MiniDV and matching a JVC HDV Camera
on May 1, 2008 at 10:05:36 am

If your camera formatted the drive you are fine and your drive will be universally acceptable to both MAC and PC systems. If you used your computer to offload and formatted with the MAC without making sure it was FAT32, the PCs could not read it.

Best,

Jan


Jan Crittenden Livingston
Product Manager, HPX500, HVX200, DVX100
Panasonic Broadcast & TV Systems



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D. Scott Dobbie
Re: Quick Reply, Please: P2, MiniDV and matching a JVC HDV Camera
on May 1, 2008 at 2:30:33 pm

Thanks, Jan (and Noah). It's good to know all that. I live in such a Mac world that I didn't know a PC still couldn't read a Mac-formatted drive. I thought it was all universal now. Doh!



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Michael Sacci
Re: Quick Reply, Please: P2, MiniDV and matching a JVC HDV Camera
on May 1, 2008 at 4:23:04 pm

Call me crazy, but I would try to rent a JVC camera and just give them the tape, even ask then to pay the extra or at least part of it. Everyone's life would be so much better. Not to mention the footage will look similar.



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