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Myron78
Demo Reel feedback
on Sep 26, 2005 at 7:36:32 pm

go ahead and rip me a new one. I've watched this so much that I'm beginning to hate it all. I know I need a new song and I was wondering if anyone knows the legal issues with having a copywrited (written?) song on your reel. I personally think its ok since you are not selling and reciveing money for your Reel.


anyway right here:

http://inlabmusic.com/myron_demoreel.html


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Greg
Re: Demo Reel feedback
by
on Sep 27, 2005 at 5:47:35 pm

Myron-

Great reel. Nice job. You're right about the music. It has to go. I'm not sure why you chose that sone if you weren't going to cut to the beat. Also, I'm not a lawyer, but I would have to say that your violating copyright laws. You are INDEED selling something...your services.
Copyrights are not only there as a prevention from people selling things. What if I took you best shots and graphics and put them on my reel and put that reel on my website? Would you feel violated? It can't be done. How do you think Black Eyed Peas would feel?

As a matter of fact, we used Pump it for a corporate in-house video about 2 weeks ago. When they said they wanted to send the video out to field offices, we re-cut the show with library music. Yuck! But it had to be done. Again, no sales were intended with this video...it was strictly for motvational purposes.


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Brian24DP
Re: Demo Reel feedback
on Sep 27, 2005 at 11:38:18 pm

Allow me to opine on the subject of copyrights. Technically yes you arent supposed to use copyrighted music, BUT, no label is EVER going to waste their time with somone using it in a reel. Waste of their time. As cliche' as this is: Everyone uses copyrighted music in their reels, so why should you have to use crappy canned stuff?

In regards to this post:
"As a matter of fact, we used Pump it for a corporate in-house video about 2 weeks ago. When they said they wanted to send the video out to field offices, we re-cut the show with library music. Yuck! But it had to be done. Again, no sales were intended with this video...it was strictly for motvational purposes. "

Corporate "events" are TOTALLY different. Corporations MUST abide by all copyright, ascap, bmi, laws and regulations. They cant play a song at a corporate party without paying royalties. Corporations are moving millions, billions, and trillions of dollars, therefore a reason for the music industry to keep tabs. They would never, and will never come after someone for putting music in a personal reel. Technically its not right, but no one cares.

b



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Greg
Re: Demo Reel feedback
by
on Sep 28, 2005 at 3:01:28 pm

While agree with Brian on the corporate stuff, I disagree on the demo reel logic. Especially since most people are using their websites to display demo reels. It no longer just ends up in a potential clients TV. It's there for ANYONE to find.

The other point here is try to explain to your potential client why you can use copywritten music in your demo, but not in their show. Good luck there.

The industry is cracking down on music downloads for personal use in your own CD player. They are cracking down on wedding videographers who use music. Somewhere..sometime they are going to make an example of someone with copyrighted music on a website.

Now is the time to obey the law.


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spockedit
Re: Demo Reel feedback
on Sep 29, 2005 at 2:51:50 am

I work for a nice sized company and I'm routinely interview people for editing and motion graphics positions. Everyone uses copywrited music. I can't even begin to stress that enough. It's almost like a sign of that particular editors personality. To use canned music would be bad, unless it was really good canned music.

Jonah


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Brian24DP
Re: Demo Reel feedback
on Sep 29, 2005 at 3:09:02 am

EXACTLY>....

why would any good editor want to use crappy canned music. I try to use less commercial music, but i dont by any means pay that close attention to copyright laws. Im not going to use copyrighted material in anything i broadcast, but until the FBI knocks at my door for using a song on my reel i will choose my demo reel songs in this mannor: "hmm.... YUP, thats the song!"


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Myron78
Re: Demo Reel feedback
on Sep 29, 2005 at 3:38:13 am

That was my next argument, that the music does give the audience/employer a peak into the artist's personality without meeting them. and if you use a song that is not on mainstream radio, don't you think that musican would welcome the free advertising? (I know this dosen't apply to me because I have the Black Eyed Peas)


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promoboy
Re: Demo Reel feedback
on Sep 29, 2005 at 5:27:04 am

An artist is not going to appreciate the "free advertising". Their work is valuable and worth money. Free advertising doesn't pay the bills. Purchasing the rights to use the song does, and then the advertising further promotes them. It's the same argument that a client could give you--why don't you edit a piece for someone for free and they'll show it to all of their friends and family. Hey, free advertising! Maybe some work will come your way from it so you can recoup the cost of the free edit. Then again, maybe not, and then you're screwed when the bills come due.

Besides, you shouldn't be using copyright music (without purchasing the rights to it) for several reasons. Number one, it's wrong. As in illegal. And you stand to benefit from using it, so the argument that it's for personal use and not broadcast is moot. If you put a song on your reel and you get the job, you have received a benefit. Even if you don't get a job, you're distributing it to enhance your product and image, and that's a benefit. Likely the record industry won't come after you, but that doesn't matter. I could steal a TV from an unlocked home and not get caught, but that doesn't make it right. And while it may show a bit of the editor's personality, it also shows a disregard for copyright law. Besides, what if the company you end up working for doesn't have the cash to pay for copyrights and you're left editing to canned music? Can you still edit a compelling story to it? If you can, then you can edit a good demo reel to it as well. Just spend some time finding some royalty free music that reflects your personality and the potentional employer will get the same insight into your personality than if you lift something from MTV. I honestly believe choosing a popular song is much easier to edit a demo reel to than most royalty free music--it's much better known, people can hum/sing along, and the audio edits are perfected for you. I am much more impressed by a person who takes the time to find royalty free music that keeps me interested and fits their reel than someone pops in their favorite CD, rips a song and starts cutting.

Michael.


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Brian24DP
Re: Demo Reel feedback
on Sep 29, 2005 at 3:41:36 pm

You are a musician arent you....


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promoboy
Re: Demo Reel feedback
on Sep 29, 2005 at 4:21:27 pm

Nope. I'm an editor. Played piano for five years, but that was 13 years ago. Haven't touched it since.

Michael.


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kfredericks
How much to license music to an individual?
on Sep 29, 2005 at 5:11:08 pm

I know it varies. But what if I contacted the proper people for the purpose of a demo reel. Has anyone ever done such a thing? Here? If so, how much does it cost? $10,000?! Just curious to add context to this debate.


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Brian24DP
Re: How much to license music to an individual?
on Sep 29, 2005 at 5:42:14 pm

Prices are subjective. Depends on the artest and the label and the producer. Check ASCAP or BMI for rates.


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Myron78
Re: Demo Reel feedback
on Sep 29, 2005 at 5:52:38 pm

WOW. if your not a musican you're definatly a lawyer. I agree that you can make yourself look better if you can make crappy music look good with the visuals you create.

anyway here's a video of the aftermath of when my roommate gets piss drunk. I never intended to put this on the web but I cut it to a Bestie Boys song, so I think its revelant to this discussion. This has been for personal use, but I've been thinking of putting it on my Demo Reel DVD somewhere.

http://inlabmusic.com/DontDrink.html

enjoy

-Myron


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promoboy
Re: Demo Reel feedback
on Sep 29, 2005 at 6:23:58 pm

I never did comment on your demo reel. That was the original purpose of this read, wasn't it? Took an odd turn, but here are my comments.

I'd speed up the opening. I like your graphic treatment to introduce what your reel is representing, but it took a while to finally get into it. Also, regardless of the fact that it's a copywritten song, I didn't think it fit the reel. The music didn't seem to be linked to your visual until the end when you cut to the beat. Your animation looks great, and you're good at compositing your animations into a natural environment and keeping them just that--natural looking. Overall, I liked it. One suggestion--contact information. If your demo reel comes across a person's desk and you're just the one they need but they lost your resume, you're out of luck. I'd put a phone number and email address with your name at the end. Provides a call to action--you've shown them your chops, give them a way to contact you. Otherwise, I quite enjoyed it. And I really liked your logo builds.

About the video of your roommate drunk--leave it off the reel. It's not appropriate for business.

Michael.

P.S. I'm not a lawyer either, but thanks! I think.


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Myron78
Re: Demo Reel feedback
on Sep 29, 2005 at 6:28:38 pm

thanks for the feedback. On my actual DVD that I send out I've got my contact info on the main menu. I just recently put this on the web. actually what if I just put it on the web page its self?


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Myron78
Re: Demo Reel feedback
on Sep 29, 2005 at 6:42:51 pm

I am just as curious about the copywright debate (maybe even more than my reel). I like the way this discussion is going. now we need someone to counter your point.

Also, does anyone know a good compression? I think my file size is a little too big (28 Mb). I think I used Sorenson 3


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Greg
Re: Demo Reel feedback
by
on Sep 30, 2005 at 2:24:26 am

I think I said it the best I can. Violation of copyright laws is just that. Violation of the law. Regardless if you get caught or not. Someone showing me a demo reel with stolen music would say alot about that person's character and creativity. I would pass on that person.

Hey Myron, I'd like to steal your graphics samples and use them on my demo reel. Would that be okay? Heck..you'll get free advertising, and guess what?...If you don't know my website location...you'll never know it used your stuff...but that won't bother you now...will it?


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Brian24DP
Re: Demo Reel feedback
on Sep 30, 2005 at 7:44:19 am

"Someone showing me a demo reel with stolen music would say alot about that person's character and creativity. I would pass on that person."

Remind me never to work for you then... HAHA, my friend: I have been editing and DPing for 7 years now, and have had a reel for about 6. And in those 6 years ive probably had 100 versions of each reel... I have NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER lost a job because it contained copyrighted music.
I have never walked into a studio and showed my DP reel to the Exec and gotten "Listen, we love your style, we love your lighting, your exactly the guy we need on set. BUT, you used a re-mix of motzart prefromed by prodogy in your reel, and wellll, i dont think you got clearence... So we're gonna have to pass on this buisness opportunity."

HAHAHAHAAHAHA< come on my friends. Seriously.

NOW> i will say this. These guys are absolutely right. Is it wrong? Sure. Is it technically illegal? Absoluetly. But, how many of these same people have EVER downloaded a song off of napster????? Same thing.

Dont get me wrong, im not condoning stealing peoples music for your personal gain. And as i have said before, I tend to use music no ones heard of... But its still usualy copyrighted. I have also worked on a good hand full of TV pilots. Do you think the execs give a damn about using copyrighted music? NO WAY! This is what every single exec has said "Its not for broadcast, i dont care"
Is it morally right? Well thats for you to decide. But will you get thrown in jail if you do? Most likely not!

B


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Greg
Re: Brian- Demo Reel feedback
by
on Sep 30, 2005 at 1:41:12 pm

Brian,
certainly if you're a DP shpwing your reel copyrighted music isn't the issue...your shots are. But if you're an editor and you use copyrighted music for your demo...that's different. That shows something about your character.

If the only question you have for yourself is "Will I go to Jail", and that's what concerns you...please don't move into my neighborhood. Also, you're right...most executives are not concerned about you stealing music...until they get caught. I wonder who takes the fall there...hmmmmmm. Hope you look good in prison stripes.


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Jim Zito
Re: Brian- Demo Reel feedback
on Sep 30, 2005 at 2:49:43 pm

A good solution to the music dilema is to just buy any of those cheap, easy-to-use, loop based music creation software and make your own music. They're very easy to use and I think Acid Pro is only about 100 bucks.


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Brian24DP
Re: Brian- Demo Reel feedback
on Sep 30, 2005 at 2:58:32 pm

"certainly if you're a DP shpwing your reel copyrighted music isn't the issue...your shots are."

AHH, i get it... So theres a double standard... DP's and Directors CAN steal music, but editors and graphic artists can not... Well shit, i guess i missed that line in the ASCAP contract.

"But if you're an editor and you use copyrighted music for your demo...that's different. That shows something about your character."

Your right, it does show something about my "character", it shows i know how to pick good sounding music that gets across the feel and look i was going for... and that my friend IS a skill.

"If the only question you have for yourself is "Will I go to Jail", and that's what concerns you...please don't move into my neighborhood."

Your right you know that... I mean i wouldnt want any hard working people who cut to unlicenced music in my neighborhood... BRING ON THE SEX OFFENDERS.

"Also, you're right...most executives are not concerned about you stealing music...until they get caught."

Until they get caught???? I have strictly been talking about NON_BROADCAST situations. I would never use unlicenced music for broadcast, and most execs understand that. When was the last time you heard of anyone getting sued or put in jail for using unlicenced music in a promo that never aired?????? give me a break. Go back to playing on your imac.

"I wonder who takes the fall there...hmmmmmm. Hope you look good in prison stripes."

UM well lets see... If it DOESNT BROADCAST... No one takes the fall because nothing has happend... And if it does make it to broadcast the NETWORK gets sued... I mean i know our jail system is getting crowded with all these editors and gfx artists these days.. Thank god the DPs of the world get a "get out of jail free card" according to your logic.

and on a side note.... i have also NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER lost an EDITING job because i used copyrighted music. NEVER....

ps. (next time think out what your going to say before you try to back up an argument with nonsence)


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Greg
Re: Brian- Demo Reel feedback
by
on Sep 30, 2005 at 3:19:20 pm

Brian- best wishes to you. I'm not going to trade insults or personal attacks with you. What's the point? I'm done here. I think you've exhibited exactly the type of business you run.

By the way..why not post your website here so we can all take a look. Maybe we can send a copy of your stuff to ASCAP for their opinion.

Have great day.


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Brian24DP
Re: Brian- Demo Reel feedback
on Oct 1, 2005 at 1:04:39 am

Nothing personal my friend, just proving my point.

"By the way..why not post your website here so we can all take a look. Maybe we can send a copy of your stuff to ASCAP for their opinion."

You are the reason unions exists in this business...


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spockedit
Re: Brian- Demo Reel feedback
on Oct 1, 2005 at 5:38:05 am

No to keep this going any longer than it has to... but I just put a listing on mandy for a freelance after effects artist. I've been looking at reels all freaking day. EVERYONE used real music. EVERYONE. And these are people who work at MTV, Comedy Central, CNN, et cetera. Okay okay, one guy used canned music by I immediately through it in the trash and then set the trash on fire.


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Brian24DP
Re: Brian- Demo Reel feedback
on Oct 1, 2005 at 6:45:17 am

thank you.


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Bob Vick
Re: Brian- Demo Reel feedback
on Oct 17, 2005 at 9:55:55 pm

Just saw the demo. Not bad. I think the cuts should be quicker. Don't give them time to really study the animation or effect. All you are offering is a taste, or really a tease. I do like how you give a little "behind the scene look". But still make them want to calll you back by giving just enough and no more. Don't hang on an animation until it resolves or almost does.

As for the big debate

No matter how you slice it, if you didn't get permission, it's stealing...no matter how many others are doing it. You alone have to decide if it's worth it. Doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. Except maybe the owner of the copyright. Hey - lifeguard NOT on duty, edit at your own risk!

cheers

b

Bob Vick sr promo guy @ ch3 wwmt tv, kalamazoo, mi


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