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Not to open a can of worms, but....

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TVEdit
Not to open a can of worms, but....
on Apr 2, 2005 at 5:12:29 pm


I'm curious as to what your opinions are regarding use of unlicensed music in demo reels.

I'm in the process of editing my new demo, and not really sure how to proceed with this. On the one hand, it is technically a copyright violation. On the other, does this mean that all individual editors, compositors, 3D artists, producers, directors, etc. need to learn how to create their own music?

Interested to hear what you folks think.



Pain is temporary... film is forever.


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TVEdit
And, yes...
on Apr 2, 2005 at 6:01:58 pm


I've read through the big honkin' thread from August 2004 about this topic. I know there are probably some newer folks to this forum, and I'd be interested in their opinion.

Pain is temporary... film is forever.


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Ken
Re: And, yes...
by
on Apr 3, 2005 at 12:11:50 am

For what it's worth..... my opinion.

I agree, that while "technically" it is a copyright violation, I still end up using some popular songs in my pieces. I have both Acid Music and Smartsounds for Premiere, and use those as much as possible, but sometimes you just need that recognizable piece. However, if I don't already have it on my multitude of CD's, I try tp get from a service like Itunes. Maybe just a mental soothe, but at least I have "purchased" it, and I feel better about using it.
Everything I have done has been for a small, limited audience, as in wedding videos or a corporate demo, not for mass wide spread sale and distribution. I know that I would certainly go through one of the licensing services if I was going to produce and sell something on a large scale.

afain, just my 2 cents worth.....


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Carl Sollenberger
Re: And, yes...
on Apr 3, 2005 at 9:19:24 am

This is not a hard question to answer for your self. If it is against the law - simply don't do it.
How large or small your viewer base is irrelevant by the way.
It blows my mind how this is always a big issue - when in fact it's a no-brainer!
So what does this mean? Use other peoples music if you must - but do it the right way and pay for it.

Part of your demo reel should be your own music. With Acid Pro you can make some killer original music of your own to further enhance your demo.

If you're not in to that - go get Digital Juice - or something like it for a great selection of royalty free music....



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Heather
Re: And, yes...
on Apr 3, 2005 at 7:32:30 pm

You can also check out http://www.flashkit.com They have a wide array of stock loops that are copyright free, or have a link to the individual who created the music. Often, they just want to be mentioned in the credits or a very small fee.

Also, it depends on my many seconds you use of a particular piece for it to be a copyright issue. You can also get the permission of the artist. When I have done this with well known pieces, and explained how the song was going to be used, the artist gave me written permission to use the piece as long as I put him in the credits (without charging me since the video/reel was not going to be sold for profit).

Good Luck!

Heather


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RJ Hannigan
Re: And, yes...
on Apr 4, 2005 at 7:08:29 pm

i think its totally fine to use whatever music you see fit for your personal demo reel...be it copyright or not...everyone does it...there are thousands of demo reels on the web that use very recognizable tracks that they obviously dont have the rights to...and dont gimme that line...well just because everyone else does it doesnt make it right...unless your making a direct profit from using someones song i say use it...and i dont mean work that comes in off someone seeing your reel with someone elses music attatched...what i mean is selling something with someone elses music on it...like if you were to charge to watch your demo reel online(which is just ludicrous in itself) or if you incorporate someone elses music into a commisioned job/project...other than that its fair game and i think most people in the mograph field would agree..

Regards,

R.J. Hannigan


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David Jones
Re: And, yes...
on Apr 5, 2005 at 8:58:02 pm

[RJ Hannigan] "i think its totally fine to use whatever music you see fit for your personal demo reel...be it copyright or not"

Thats like saying its OK to use a bootleg copy of Artbeats ReelFire video that you downloaded because its only your demo.
Give me a break, stealing is stealing!

[RJ Hannigan] "unless your making a direct profit from using someones song i say use it"

What do you think a demo is for?
In my little world a demo is used to get business, make money, earn a living!

How would you like it if someone used part of your Demo reel without your permission,
as an example of what bad editing looks like compared to their work?

Or took a great looking backdrop you created without your permission,
and used it behind a logo and some fonts in their demo?


[RJ Hannigan] "ts fair game and i think most people in the mograph field would agree.."

And I would have to say, that 100% of the people in the composition field, "You know, the people that write and own the songs in question" would disagree!


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Vinnie
Re: Not to open a can of worms, but....
on Apr 4, 2005 at 8:44:07 pm

Come on people....really!

If you are making a some coin off of a piece that has copyrighted music on it either get a lawyer or use some different music. If you are using it for demos and what not then use whatever you want. I am sure Marilyn Manson will not hunt you down cause your demo rocks and he wants his royalties. Really dont blow this out of proportion.

Vinnie


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David Oulashian
Re: Not to open a can of worms, but....
on Apr 7, 2005 at 8:09:56 pm

For my demo reel a few years back, I actually contacted the record company (Forefront) and asked if I could use a song by one of their artists (dc talk), I told them that it was for a demo reel and would be used on a limited run of less than 300. They agreed to it -- all I had to do was give a music credit at the end of the reel -- which I did.

Now granted that was a smaller label/band but I was happy to be able to acquire the music legally (and free).

I agree that if you don't have permission you probably shouldn't use it -- I also never used Napster . . .

Just my 2 cents . . .


David Oulashian


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TimeKoder13
Re: Not to open a can of worms, but....
on Apr 8, 2005 at 7:21:53 am

I don't know dude. I used to get in a tizzy about not getting ripped off 15 years ago with my band, but now I'm like just spell my name right. I supported the original Napster and what they were doing. I always thought the labels should've made a deal with them. "All That Jazz" a 1987 hiphop song explains it well. To paraphrase: the rapper was saying it was silly for the old timers to sue the young jacks for sampling them. That they were using records that nobody even played anymore and that if they didn't sample them, then they would've been forgotten artists, footnotes. But that by sampling them, they were regenerating interest in these old timers again, and they would then be able to make bread off of shows they were able to do all b/c the young jacks sampled their old records. Chicken/Egg. I just found it funny that artists, who were getting pimped by their labels ANYWAY were suddenly bedfellows. Everyone knows artists live off shows and merchandising, records are just commercials. No greater example then the highly bootlegged GRATEFUL DEAD who wore it as a badge, just spell our names right. BUT I can dig the artists who support their labels, some prostitues half Stockholm Syndrome too. So I guess if you can't live with yourself then ask, if it ain't gonna end your world use away. Just one musician's opinion.


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Joey Korenman
Re: Not to open a can of worms, but....
on Apr 13, 2005 at 2:31:43 pm

I'm a musician as well as an editor and motion graphics artist. I think it's 100% OK to use whatever music you want on your demo reel.

First of all, you are not showing off your musical skills... you're showing off your graphics / editing / composting skills. I don't think that using a band's music is the same as using someone elses graphics on your reel. The music is simply to move the reel along and to say something about your personality, not to show off how great a musician you are (or aren't).

Second, my feeling has always been that if someone had no intention of paying for my music, why should I FORCE them to pay or choose not to let them listen to it. It's silly. Of course you can't afford to pay Moby for the rights to use his song on your reel. The truth is that either you will use it and not pay him, or not use it and not pay him. Either way, he has no chance of making money off of you, and probably doesn't care anyway because everyone who sees your reel will hear his song. Hearing a song a million times is what makes people buy CDs... so you're doing him a favor.

I say that as long as you have PAID for the song on Itunes or on the CD, use it. As soon as someone is paying you to use that song in a spot, or on a video, or in a show, you gotta pay for it.

joey


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David Oulashian
Re: Not to open a can of worms, but....
on Apr 13, 2005 at 4:34:30 pm

I think that you are kind of missing the point. You can use your argument to justify pretty much anything.

"Hey, I'm not gonna buy that DVD of Napolean Dynamite anyway, so I may as well steal it."

or

"Hey, I'm not gonna buy that Halo2 software anyway, so I may as well just bootleg it."

With your rationale, I wonder why you stipulate that you even need to buy the song on iTunes?

"Hey, I'm not gonna buy that song on itunes for $.99 anyway so I may as well bootleg it."

What it comes down to is what is legal or not. Sure, millions of people illegally pirate media all of the time. That doesn't make it right.

David Oulashian


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Diligence
Re: Not to open a can of worms, but....
on Jul 14, 2005 at 4:00:19 pm

Just because something is illegal doesn't make it wrong! I won't advocate breaking the law, but your argument is lacking.

"With your rationale" segregation was right up until Brown v. Board of Education. I think is up to us to as citizen to challenge the law. And I think copyright law is an excellent place to start.

If were talking wrong or right, then I think it is ok to use copyright music in your "personal" reel.

1) Your not selling a product, you are selling skills, your skills! Unless your reel is a sound editors reel or something like that or if it


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