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Puppet Tool in Motion 4?

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Mads Meskalin
Puppet Tool in Motion 4?
on Mar 13, 2010 at 9:41:20 pm

Hi folks!

I bought final cut studio 3 a month ago, but after watching some after effects tutorials Im beginning to wonder if I should have given AE another try. I work as a VJ, and needed a fast, easy and powerful program for creating content, which was why I went for FCS 3 (because of motion) but all the tutorials and demo reels made with AE looks so amazing. Can you do most of the same stuff i motion 4?

There is one particular feature I was interested in. The puppet tool in AE. Is there any workaround to make the same results in motion 4?

Forgive my ranting and messy post,
peace,
Mads Meskalin


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Noah Kadner
Re: Puppet Tool in Motion 4?
on Mar 13, 2010 at 10:20:23 pm

Not really- not like the puppet tool. AE and Motion are very different programs. I see no reason why anyone would restrict themselves to one over the other. Both are highly useful to have.

Noah

Check out my book: RED: The Ultimate Guide to Using the Revolutionary Camera!
Unlock the secrets of 24p, HD and Final Cut Studio with Call Box Training. Featuring the Sony EX1 Guidebook, Panasonic HVX200, Canon EOS 5D Mark II and Canon 7D.
Watch Formosa- My indie movie shot with the SDX900 and finished with Final Cut Studio.


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Mads Meskalin
Re: Puppet Tool in Motion 4?
on Mar 13, 2010 at 11:33:25 pm

Its because I have to start with one, as they will only serve as a tool for my live visuals. I went with motion because I heard it was easier to use. Do you have any suggestions to how I could acheive anything related to it, in motion?


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Phil Williams
Re: Puppet Tool in Motion 4?
on Mar 14, 2010 at 8:17:22 am

[Noah Kadner] "I see no reason why anyone would restrict themselves to one over the other"

Not everyone has the time to learn both, not everyone has the money to buy both. And there are probably plenty of AE users who don't have Macs ;)




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Noah Kadner
Re: Puppet Tool in Motion 4?
on Mar 14, 2010 at 7:14:43 pm

[Phil Williams] "Not everyone has the time to learn both, not everyone has the money to buy both. And there are probably plenty of AE users who don't have Macs ;)"

Well that being said- it pays to do your research before committing to one over the other- and I'm guessing anyone in this forum has Motion otherwise why bother coming here?

Anyaways- to the best of my knowledge there's nothing like the AE puppet tool in Motion. Not that you couldn't come up with a somewhat similar effect with filters and behaviors as you learn the program.

Noah

Check out my book: RED: The Ultimate Guide to Using the Revolutionary Camera!
Unlock the secrets of 24p, HD and Final Cut Studio with Call Box Training. Featuring the Sony EX1 Guidebook, Panasonic HVX200, Canon EOS 5D Mark II and Canon 7D.
Watch Formosa- My indie movie shot with the SDX900 and finished with Final Cut Studio.


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Mads Meskalin
Re: Puppet Tool in Motion 4?
on Mar 14, 2010 at 8:14:24 pm

This leads me to another issue. After looking at several Motion and After Effects reels, its seems to me that motion is more geared towards commercial work/advertisements, while After Effects is being used more by the artistic crowd. I simply cant find any Motion reels that doesnt show brand names, while I see much more artistic reels made with After Effects.
Can anyone please explain why? Is After Effects more suited to artistic work? Can anyone point me to some really good reels made with motion?


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Noah Kadner
Re: Puppet Tool in Motion 4?
on Mar 16, 2010 at 4:51:29 am

How does that really matter at all? It's all about what you can do with a particular program, not what everyone else is doing. The reason why I'd say both is that these are not comparable programs- though they have some overlap. For high-end compositing and vfx, I'd go AFX (or really I'd go Shake or Nuke). For dynamic titles and things like particle effects I'd go Motion. So that's why you kinda need both in your tool kit. If you are going to pick one, decide what's most important to you first.

Noah

Check out my book: RED: The Ultimate Guide to Using the Revolutionary Camera!
Unlock the secrets of 24p, HD and Final Cut Studio with Call Box Training. Featuring the Sony EX1 Guidebook, Panasonic HVX200, Canon EOS 5D Mark II and Canon 7D.
Watch Formosa- My indie movie shot with the SDX900 and finished with Final Cut Studio.


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Phil Williams
Re: Puppet Tool in Motion 4?
on Mar 16, 2010 at 5:36:10 am

[Mads Meskalin] "Is After Effects more suited to artistic work?"

Well, first define what you mean by "artistic work". But the bottom line is that about 95% of what you can do in AE, you can also do in Motion - things like the Puppet Tool being among the exceptions. Motion does some things much better than AE, AE does some things much better than Motion. But most of the time, you can do what you need to do in either app, which is great if you don't have the time or money to invest in buying and learning both.

It would be great if Motion did everything AE did, but AE has been around for 17 years, Motion only for 6 years. It's pretty impressive that Motion has come as far as it has in such a short space of time, even if it is still pretty buggy and idiosyncratic :)

AE is as widely used in commercial work as Motion is, if not more so. But if you're seeing more "artistic work" on AE reels than Motion reels, it's not because Motion can't do it. Arguably, things like the Replicator (which I don't think AE has an equivalent to), allied with paint strokes, particle effects and behaviours, mean that Motion is ideally suited to creating artistic effects if you're so inclined.

I'd highly recommend Patrick Sheffield's book How To Cheat In Motion. There are some *very* artistic uses of Motion in there.


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Mads Meskalin
Re: Puppet Tool in Motion 4?
on Mar 16, 2010 at 11:43:15 am

Thanks Noah and Phil!

For me its a valid question, since I want to be sure I can make what I want in motion before I spend all my time trying to learn it. Problem is: I`m new to compositing/motion graphics, so I dont know what I want. I work as a VJ, and its primarly to set up compositions for live use. And thus I wondered why I couldnt find any experimental reels made in motion, while there are many made in After Effects. Maybe it would be the inherent possibilites in each program, but as Phil pointed out I think I can do most of what I would want in the future in motion, right?

I`m in the process of learning Max/MSP/Jitter and Modul8, so I have to focus on either After Effects or Motion (also for economic reasons)

Noah: You said that AE is a better compositing app, while motion is more of a motion graphics app. Could you please explain me the difference between compositing and motion graphics? For me it seems like they both are about the same thing.

Last question: Puppet Tool is not possible in Motion. But could you point me in where I could start if I want to animate a single image in the same way? Distortion tools? Cut it up and use behaviours?

I really appreciate your in-depth and professional advice. You are the best!


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Noah Kadner
Re: Puppet Tool in Motion 4?
on Mar 16, 2010 at 4:53:33 pm

Not to be rude- but you need to spend some time googling this subject. We're here on this forum to help provide solutions to technical problems. What you're looking for is research data. There are countless detailed articles comparing Motion to After Effects out there for the asking...

Noah

Check out my book: RED: The Ultimate Guide to Using the Revolutionary Camera!
Unlock the secrets of 24p, HD and Final Cut Studio with Call Box Training. Featuring the Sony EX1 Guidebook, Panasonic HVX200, Canon EOS 5D Mark II and Canon 7D.
Watch Formosa- My indie movie shot with the SDX900 and finished with Final Cut Studio.


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Mark Suszko
Re: Puppet Tool in Motion 4?
on Mar 18, 2010 at 4:38:56 pm

Hopefully someone will make a plug-in for Motion at some point that does puppeteering. I think for right now, you may want to use one of the dedicated flash-based animation apps for that specific kind of thing, like ToonBoom or Aztek or Swift or Swish or one of those. Or Poser. That is, unless you go AE. I know plenty of folks who bought the Adobe bundle as a dongle, just to get AE:-)

I like AE, and hope to learn it soon, but I find it is a very dense program; ful of immense power but also a lot of complexity, and an interface that's tightly crammed with a LOT of controls... personally I look at Motion as a compact and streamlined version of AE, with a simplified user interface, able to do much the same work but in a way optimized for certain kinds of processes. There is nothing in that to dictate that one is more "Commercial" or "Artistic" than another; they are all just tools, and one guy uses a chainsaw for sculpting while another just for cutting firewood. It's the artist, not the tool. My wife is a pro graphic designer and illustrator and she doesn't keep a separate drawer of brushes and etc. for when she is doing "fine art" versus commercial illustration. The artist is not his tools.

I have myself only just been using Motion intensely for the last three or so weeks, and my initial impressions are that it is optimized for flying type around in as few moves as possible, and I really like all the presets and canned animated moves and behaviors (like expressions, kinda) all ready to just drop on the text and go. I keep wishing I could use some of the type effects presets on non-type image files, but that may not be possible.

Motion seems fairly intuitive to me now, after as I said just a few weeks. When I now look at some AE tutorials, my practice using Motion makes it easier to follow what the AE demo guy is up to.

If I had to puppeteer, say, an animated figure in Motion, I would do it by making "groups of groups", and though I hadn't really seen anything quite like using a null and parent/child in Motion yet, I *think* I could fake some of that just by nesting groups within groups, and letting behaviors do the work for me wherever possible.
That makes the puppet limited to what you pre-progam it to do, not highly interactive for live work.


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