FORUMS: list search recent posts

the new smoke sibscription model

COW Forums : Autodesk Smoke

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
Ricardo Marty
the new smoke sibscription model
on Apr 8, 2014 at 11:34:37 pm

does any one know if smoke will only be available via subcription? will those that cancel the subscription be able to keep whatever vesion they had?

ricardo marty


Return to posts index

Gustavo Bermudas
Re: the new smoke sibscription model
on Apr 9, 2014 at 7:32:52 am

No, once you cancel the subscription is gone, very much like Adobe's. What's worse is what you would pay for renting it for 2 years is the same as buying it, except you won't have that option. I don't see people making much of a fuss, probably because most don't care about using it in the first place, so good luck to Autodesk trying to grab more market with those prices.


Return to posts index

Ricardo Marty
Re: the new smoke sibscription model
on Apr 9, 2014 at 1:45:43 pm

Wow this i bad.. smoke users realy dont have much alternatives. its a high end tool used mostly by shops (me thinks) so whats going to happen?

Ricardo marty


Return to posts index


Walter Soyka
Re: the new smoke sibscription model
on Apr 9, 2014 at 1:59:40 pm

[Ricardo Marty] "does any one know if smoke will only be available via subcription? will those that cancel the subscription be able to keep whatever vesion they had?"

Brian Mulligan explains:

If you are a subscription customer of Smoke you will get a perpetual license version of Smoke 2015. But for any new customers looking at pursuing Smoke, the licensing has changed to a rental license. Also, any future versions of Smoke will be part of the new Desktop Subscription. This means that you can rent the usage of Smoke monthly, quarterly, or yearly. It pretty much works like the Adobe Creative Cloud in that you no longer own the software outright. The cost however, is quite attractive.

http://www.premiumbeat.com/blog/autodesk-smoke-2015-and-flame-assist-on-mac...

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


Return to posts index

Brian Mulligan
Re: the new smoke sibscription model
on Apr 9, 2014 at 2:21:00 pm

Here's my take....
This is no different than Adobe CC and you can love it or hate it, but this is how companies are doing it now.

But the smoke pricing is really pretty good.
the $1750/ yr is half of what 2013 version was. ($3495)

So you can get 2 years of software for the same price.
Then there was the old subscription model which was like another $700/ year. Add 2 years of that up and you have another year of Desktop Subscription.

If you are using Smoke for 3 years like this and making money everyday on it, then the rental price is pretty sweet.

If you don't need it every day. then you can rent quarterly or monthly. Not bad.

I pay for Netflix and don't get to keep my movies. Welcome to the new world order.

Brian Mulligan
Senior Editor - Autodesk Smoke
WTHR-TV Indianapolis,IN, USA
Twitter: @bkmeditor


Return to posts index

Ricardo Marty
Re: the new smoke sibscription model
on Apr 9, 2014 at 2:33:37 pm

If this is the new busness model remains to be seen. However in the case of smoke it might work because its limited to highend clients mostly becase their realy is no other choice.. i truly hope fails.

Ricardo marty


Return to posts index


Brian Mulligan
Re: the new smoke sibscription model
on Apr 9, 2014 at 2:36:15 pm

Also, if you are a current user of 2013 and get the perpetual lic of 2015, talk to your reseller about any deals moving forward. Ihear there are some to ease the migration to desktop Smoke moving forward.

Brian Mulligan
Senior Editor - Autodesk Smoke
WTHR-TV Indianapolis,IN, USA
Twitter: @bkmeditor


Return to posts index

Walter Soyka
Re: the new smoke sibscription model
on Apr 9, 2014 at 2:41:06 pm

[Ricardo Marty] "If this is the new busness model remains to be seen. However in the case of smoke it might work because its limited to highend clients mostly becase their realy is no other choice."

I think anyone serious about Smoke was already on subscription anyway.

There are plenty of other choices, though they are mostly significantly more expensive.


[Ricardo Marty] "i truly hope fails."

Are you actually interested in Smoke, or just opposed to subscription licensing?

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


Return to posts index

Ricardo Marty
Re: the new smoke sibscription model
on Apr 9, 2014 at 2:53:34 pm

I dont use smoke i am opposed to the suscription only model.
Just out of curiosity what are the alternatives to smoke?

Ricardo marty


Return to posts index


Walter Soyka
Re: the new smoke sibscription model
on Apr 9, 2014 at 3:03:40 pm

[Ricardo Marty] "Just out of curiosity what are the alternatives to smoke?"

Depending on whether you assign more value to color or compositing... Resolve, Pr/Ae/Sg, Symphony, NUKE/HIERO (soon NUKE STUDIO), SCRATCH, Pablo, and Mistika off the top of my head.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


Return to posts index

Sascha Haber
Re: the new smoke sibscription model
on Apr 9, 2014 at 3:35:55 pm

This is what i was waiting for....
I work in a studio that has the licence , but does not hire people anymore.
We are all freelancing...
We are, on the other hand, able to take the project with us.
This enables me to rent Smoke for a month and chance a logo or extend a shot i already did without the client or myself being bound to the studio.

I am loving it...!

A slice of color...

Resolve 10.1.0.021
Colorist / VFX / Aerial footage nerd
http://vimeo.com/saschahaber


Return to posts index

Gustavo Bermudas
Re: the new smoke sibscription model
on Apr 9, 2014 at 8:35:19 pm

Well, all I can say is that the crickets were too loud last night when they announced the new pricing scheme at the Supermeet.


Return to posts index


Gustavo Bermudas
Re: the new smoke sibscription model
on Apr 9, 2014 at 8:58:02 pm

I rather pay the full license once and pay $600/yr, than paying three times that amount every year. It may work for some people, but they shouldn't have eliminated perpetual. We were thinking in buying 12 seats of Smoke, but now we're looking into other options.


Return to posts index

Ricardo Marty
Re: the new smoke sibscription model
on Apr 9, 2014 at 10:06:15 pm

Yes its like buying it over every 2 years. Maybe this might work for autodesk because its a limited product for highend stuff. But i sure hope it explodes in therer face as well as adobes.

Ricardo Marty


Return to posts index

Ricardo Marty
Re: the new smoke sibscription model
on Apr 9, 2014 at 10:12:30 pm

Yes its like buying it over every 2 years. Maybe this might work for autodesk because its a limited product for highend stuff but i totaly hope this subscription only thing hits a hard wall.

Ricardo Marty


Return to posts index


Gustavo Bermudas
Re: the new smoke sibscription model
on Apr 10, 2014 at 12:32:19 am

To be honest, I got the impression that Autodesk itself doesn't know what to do with Smoke. At first they were targeting FCP 7 users, then disgruntled creative cloud members, now it seems like a chicken without a head honestly.
They discontinued support for Sparks and cannot used Smoke for Mac as a preparation tool for Flame artist.
So I get the sense that they're trying to re-establish the glory of the mythical box from the old days by making Flame exclusive to big companies, and protecting them in a way, and considering how much Blackmagic devastated this industry, is a noble attempt.

Time will tell, but I think it's too late since there are tons of applications not even remotely in the range of a Flame that can do the same or more.

Personally, if they want to grab the online market by the horns with Smoke, they should have made it work fast, render fast, include a color grading app with grading management that grades without rendering, and that's all you would have need, lots of people had hopes, that's what most want from Smoke, but instead, we got a subscription option. Desperate move in my opinion.


Return to posts index

Walter Soyka
Re: the new smoke sibscription model
on Apr 10, 2014 at 12:48:03 am

[Gustavo Bermudas] "We were thinking in buying 12 seats of Smoke, but now we're looking into other options."

Gustavo, I'd be curious to hear what other solutions you're considering. Like you, I'm a little confused by the new split between Smoke and Flame and I'd love to hear more about Autodesk's vision going forward for Smoke.

NUKE STUDIO looks like it will be really attractive feature-wise, but to Brian's point about affordability, I expect its ongoing annual maintenance cost will be higher than Smoke's annual subscription -- plus it will carry an upfront fee probably somewhere around where Production Collective is priced now at $9600.


[Brian Mulligan] "Also, if you are a current user of 2013 and get the perpetual lic of 2015, talk to your reseller about any deals moving forward. Ihear there are some to ease the migration to desktop Smoke moving forward."

Brian, any hints for those of us on subscription who bought Smoke 2013 direct from Autodesk instead of a reseller? Thanks!

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


Return to posts index

Brian Mulligan
Re: the new smoke sibscription model
on Apr 10, 2014 at 2:17:33 am

I'm shaking my head at the origional poster of this thread who doesn't even use Smoke, yet started it just to bitch about the concept of subscription.

@walter.... I am sure. That Autodesk can ease the transition for past subscription customers into the new system. But you'd have to check with them. I don't really have specifics. My conversations with them said that they aren't out to just screw over the Smoke 2013 adopters who were on Maintenace Subscriptions.

Brian Mulligan
Senior Editor - Autodesk Smoke
WTHR-TV Indianapolis,IN, USA
Twitter: @bkmeditor


Return to posts index


Ian MacLean
Re: the new smoke sibscription model
on Apr 22, 2014 at 9:06:33 pm

Brian Mulligan on Apr 9, 2014 at 7:17:33 pm
"...Autodesk can ease the transition for past subscription customers into the new system. ...My conversations with them said that they aren't out to just screw over the Smoke 2013 adopters who were on Maintenance Subscriptions."

I'm not so sure. I bought it (with Subscription) in January of 2013, but I haven't gotten around to learning it yet, and haven't installed it or activated the subscription.

But I'm locked out of renewing the subscription, and though I talked to someone at NAB, it's been two weeks and I've just been stalled in that time. So it sure looks like they're going to obsolete me. Can't believe I paid them $3500 and got so taken. It certainly feels like I've been grifted.


Return to posts index

Ricardo Marty
Re: the new smoke sibscription model
on Apr 22, 2014 at 10:04:57 pm

Autodesk has a history just ask any edit* user. After purchasing they eoled the product not even a thank you.

Ricardo Marrty


Return to posts index

Gustavo Bermudas
Re: the new smoke sibscription model
on Apr 10, 2014 at 2:39:43 am

What we were considering is replacing all out FCP 7 seats and AE ones. We do DIs and a lot of servicing, we're not a VFX house but sometimes we have to do simple VFX. After many tests we came to be conclusion that the only thing that made sense was Smoke.

Like everybody else, was very impressed with DaVinci Resolve editing improvements, the only thing missing is audio tools, we don't care about multicam.
But what I think in the editorial part what will work for us is Lightworks, I had a demo and I was pretty impressed, specially the tape ingest/output.
As far as VFX, MambaFX just seems like the clear choice at the moment, it has even the same color tools and VFX as Mystica, and it's about $300, so we'll definitely try that one when it comes to Mac, which I believe it's next month.
So right now the roadmap will be to test Lightworks/MambaFX, color we're set with Resolve, and see how it goes. Nuke is great but I think it's aimed at serious VFX houses.


Return to posts index

Walter Soyka
Re: the new smoke sibscription model
on Apr 10, 2014 at 2:48:40 pm

[Gustavo Bermudas] "As far as VFX, MambaFX just seems like the clear choice at the moment, it has even the same color tools and VFX as Mystica, and it's about $300, so we'll definitely try that one when it comes to Mac, which I believe it's next month. "

I jumped on Mamba FX back at IBC. It's very cool, with a really startling degree of real-time performance on nice hardware. On the downside, I find the SGO interface to be a bit frustrating and I do miss having compositing in an editorial context as with Smoke and Pr/Ae.

It could work really well if your workflow is shot-based, farming single shots out over a group of artists and recombining them in central editorial, but I wouldn't have really thought of this as as competitive with Smoke's workflow and unfortunately it's not currently very efficient for me to use Mamba FX often in my own work.


[Gustavo Bermudas] "So right now the roadmap will be to test Lightworks/MambaFX, color we're set with Resolve, and see how it goes. "

I have always gotten a lot out of your perspective on some of the other forums here at the COW -- I do hope you'll come back and share your results sometime.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


Return to posts index

Gustavo Bermudas
Re: the new smoke sibscription model
on Apr 10, 2014 at 5:03:03 pm

Thanks Walter! Will do!
I agree with you with having compositing in the timeline, that was what we like about Smoke so much, but at the moment we feel that subscription is good for something that you're going to use from time to time, we don't feel comfortable having a backbone system that's subscription only, as a matter of fact we're renting Premiere this month for a DI that was originally done in Premiere CC, mostly are FCP7 and Avid. But if Lightworks/MambaFX doesn't work (which is pretty much the workflow we have today) I think the only option that makes sense is Premiere/AE and we'll be in subscription then.


Return to posts index

walter biscardi
Re: the new smoke sibscription model
on Apr 22, 2014 at 11:15:07 pm

[Ricardo Marty] "I dont use smoke i am opposed to the suscription only model.
Just out of curiosity what are the alternatives to smoke?
"


So you don't use Smoke, you've never paid the $3500 price for it, yet you're complaining here ONLY because it has a subscription model which, as Brian Mulligan pointed out is HALF for a full year than a full $3500 perpetual license. You've also stated you want this subscription this to fail, but yet you don't use the product.

I don't see the complaint here. You don't use the product but all you're here to do is complain that it now comes in a subscription flavor that makes it much easier for anyone to just pick it up instead of up-fronting $3500. You would rather pay $3500 today to Autodesk for a software you don't use? T

I went from 5 perpetual licenses of Adobe Production Premium to the Creative Cloud and it's been absolutely awesome for us. I can install the apps across a wide array of machines and just activate the licenses as needed. It'll be the same now if we want to add Smoke. Install it and rent it by the month when we actually need instead of forking over $3500.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

Craft and Career Advice & Training from real Working Creative Professionals

Blog Twitter Facebook


Return to posts index

Ricardo Marty
Re: the new smoke sibscription model
on Apr 22, 2014 at 11:26:25 pm

I am against subscription only in all forms for tools. And i make a stand wherever i can if this model Succeeds we will all be working with rented os,browseres and who knows maby even hardware and codecs. The democratization of creativity will be strangled.
Is cc is good for you,fine but dont curtail my right to oppose it,


Ricardo marty


Return to posts index

walter biscardi
Re: the new smoke sibscription model
on Apr 22, 2014 at 11:31:19 pm

[Ricardo Marty] "Is cc is good for you,fine but dont curtail my right to oppose it,"

I oppose someone complaining about a subscription for a tool they don't even use. If you use the product, absolutely say anything you want about it. But you don't even use it.

You're just in here to complain about a subscription model that actually makes the tool MORE AFFORDABLE to anyone who wants to use it.

Sure you can complain about subscriptions all you want and if you want to get help learning Smoke, you'll get some amazing advice in here. But you started this thread solely to complain about something you don't even use.

At least over in the Adobe Creative Cloud Debate forum, those are a lot of hard core Adobe users.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

Craft and Career Advice & Training from real Working Creative Professionals

Blog Twitter Facebook


Return to posts index

Ricardo Marty
Re: the new smoke sibscription model
on Apr 22, 2014 at 11:35:42 pm

You dont like protest dont read it. And just c,arry on. I am here or anywhere protesting on a model not On the app.

Ricardo Marty


Return to posts index

walter biscardi
Re: the new smoke sibscription model
on Apr 22, 2014 at 11:52:31 pm

[Ricardo Marty] "You dont like protest dont read it. And just c,arry on. I am here or anywhere protesting on a model not On the app."

This is what we would call "noise." As a forum leader, I'm supposed to help filter out the noise. I've been lax to miss this thread since April 8th.

Let me ask you this. Have you ever used any version of Smoke? Do you have any intention of ever using Smoke 2013 or 2015?

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

Craft and Career Advice & Training from real Working Creative Professionals

Blog Twitter Facebook


Return to posts index

Ricardo Marty
Re: the new smoke sibscription model
on Apr 23, 2014 at 12:07:23 am

I had a discreet edit 5-6 digisuite license and also a smoke back in 2001. Btw i also. have and use mc6 and cs6. I never used the smoke that was for my partner.
You wont see me protesting in the avid or maxon forums because there business model Includes both. I will speak my mind on any forum i choose. Reagardless of you intent to censor.

Ricardo Marty


Return to posts index

Ian MacLean
Re: the new smoke sibscription model
on Apr 22, 2014 at 11:54:18 pm

[walter biscardi] "You're just in here to complain about a subscription model that actually makes the tool MORE AFFORDABLE to anyone who wants to use it.

Sure you can complain about subscriptions all you want and if you want to get help learning Smoke, you'll get some amazing advice in here. But you started this thread solely to complain about something you don't even use. "


Um, hell no. Look, it may make sense, or even be MORE affordable to working professionals.

But when you drop the price point below 3 grand (as Autodesk did 15 months ago), you are trying to attract broke and independent and amateur videomakers (as is Creative Cow, I assume) who are inevitably on a budget yet aren't interested in producing anything that isn't high quality. FCP X gets this and tries to make it easy and cheap for the little guy. I'd rather use Smoke, but I need a little help from Autodesk, and denying me ownership of software isn't so attractive to those without steady income.

If you're Autodesk, and looking to tap such a market, you have to realize that this market isn't looking to output to theatrical. They're looking to output to the web, and to HD tv's. And maybe they're finally buying the tools to do so. And HD may be enough, and they're not going to need updates that allow for 8K pipelines, etc. They're looking to buy and forget having to make additional payments. And put years on the high end tools that up till now, have been out of reach.

I'm sadly looking at having to make my 2008 mac pro a locked system. Mavericks will probably be the last OS update, and Smoke 2015 will eventually run on it, and it'll work for what I want to do. I SURE can't afford a new Mac Pro, and don't know when I will.

If you want to think only from a professional standpoint, and make comments from that standpoint, that's fine. But this thread is for a prosumer product, so you have to leave room for comments that come from that perspective. Just my 2 cents...


Return to posts index

walter biscardi
Re: the new smoke sibscription model
on Apr 22, 2014 at 11:56:20 pm

[Ian MacLean] "Just my 2 cents..."

So many generalizations in there, I'm sorry, not worth responding.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

Craft and Career Advice & Training from real Working Creative Professionals

Blog Twitter Facebook


Return to posts index

Ian MacLean
Re: the new smoke sibscription model
on Apr 23, 2014 at 12:01:15 am

Don't need a response. I do need a forum that doesn't boot people who aren't making software pay for itself, and don't like subscription models, and complain about it and use their voice that they're not going to pay to rent it. Like every prosumer out there...


Return to posts index

walter biscardi
Re: the new smoke sibscription model
on Apr 23, 2014 at 12:03:26 am

[Ian MacLean] " I do need a forum that doesn't boot people who aren't making software pay for itself, and don't like subscription models, and complain about it and use their voice that they're not going to pay to rent it. Like every prosumer out there..."

Just keep in mind the person who started this thread doesn't use Smoke, nor does it sound like they ever have. That was my point entirely.

Your generalization of 'prosumer' is really far off the mark. Many pros are using all of the tools available to us to earn a living.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

Craft and Career Advice & Training from real Working Creative Professionals

Blog Twitter Facebook


Return to posts index

Ian MacLean
Re: the new smoke sibscription model
on Apr 23, 2014 at 12:15:48 am

You prove my point in not being interested in a consumer's perspective that a subscription model with no ownership isn't a good enough deal to purchase, even for those who like the program, WANT to use it, and want to comment on it.

Either that, or I AM off the mark and don't understand your use of the term 'Prosumer.' I had thought it the venn overlay of the inexperienced and unpaid / non-professional, very limited limited budget consumer filmmakers with tools of professional capability. And that category of tools and software beyond the means of civilian amateurs, but too limited in capacity for full industry use. Like Smoke. How is this off? Thanks.

I'm really not trying to be contrary here. I want to own the software, and I want to be able to complain if I can't afford to do so.


Return to posts index

Walter Soyka
Re: the new smoke sibscription model
on Apr 23, 2014 at 2:44:00 am

[Ian MacLean] "Either that, or I AM off the mark and don't understand your use of the term 'Prosumer.' I had thought it the venn overlay of the inexperienced and unpaid / non-professional, very limited limited budget consumer filmmakers with tools of professional capability. And that category of tools and software beyond the means of civilian amateurs, but too limited in capacity for full industry use. Like Smoke. How is this off? Thanks."

Smoke is extremely capable and very deep. It's a professional tool that combines multiple disciplines (editing, compositing, effects) in a single app. It is in no way "too limited in capacity for full industry use."

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


Return to posts index

Ian MacLean
Re: the new smoke sibscription model
on Apr 23, 2014 at 3:05:15 am

[Walter Soyka] "Smoke is extremely capable and very deep. It's a professional tool that combines multiple disciplines (editing, compositing, effects) in a single app. It is in no way "too limited in capacity for full industry use.""

Sure it is. If a studio needs to 'fully' use all the resources in the VFX industry for a tent pole special effects film, they use Flame (or other more costly options). Smoke is still an awesome program, but it's not the premium option, and it's not the priciest option. It's somewhere between premium professional, and consumer. That which has been called by the portmanteau: 'Prosumer.'


Return to posts index

Walter Soyka
Re: the new smoke sibscription model
on Apr 23, 2014 at 3:12:31 am

[Ian MacLean] "Sure it is. If a studio needs to 'fully' use all the resources in the VFX industry for a tent pole special effects film, they use Flame (or other more costly options). Smoke is still an awesome program, but it's not the premium option, and it's not the priciest option. It's somewhere between premium professional, and consumer. That which has been called by the portmanteau: 'Prosumer.'"

Here is a list of "prosumer" editing software:
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2397215,00.asp

Smoke is not in this category.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


Return to posts index

Ricardo Marty
Re: the new smoke sibscription model
on Apr 23, 2014 at 12:16:10 am

I am no amature have been making my living of this for over 20 years. I came here a couple of weeks ago and spoke my mind and did not return untill the attempt to silence. and belittle me because of my stance. I do.t try to change users just informing them of what i think is a trap. So you keep to your corner and i to mine.

Ricardo Marty


Return to posts index

Ian MacLean
Re: the new smoke sibscription model
on Apr 23, 2014 at 12:21:30 am

I AM an amateur, and spend a LOT of time researching the best ways to get what's in my head into the can (or hard drive as it were). I'm always interested in making the answers I find easy for the next guy to find. So I like intelligent debate that can give a new perspective.

I guess (no offense) my problem with Mr. Biscardi's argument is that he precludes people considering the purchase of the product from the debate about the product. Many people have seen lengthy and detailed demos of this software, and are considering purchasing it. I hope you don't have a problem with that.


Return to posts index

Ricardo Marty
Re: the new smoke sibscription model
on Apr 23, 2014 at 12:34:34 am

Smoke i a great product. No doubt. Just learn what you are getting into.

Renting is the only available option, what ever you do will be tied forever to a pay as you go only.

Read Gustavo Bermudas opinion on this thread not saying that its the truth but its well worth considering.

Btw i was planning to purchase smoke 2013 despite my misgivings with autodesk, glad that did not.

Ricardo Marty


Return to posts index

walter biscardi
Re: the new smoke sibscription model
on Apr 23, 2014 at 12:56:16 am

[Ricardo Marty] "I do.t try to change users just informing them of what i think is a trap. So you keep to your corner and i to mine."

Ok, you just keep telling people to stay away from something you don't use if that suits you. I can speak from experience using the Creative Cloud for over a year now to say it's not perfect, but I personally would like to see everyone go subscription model for all pro software. I applaud Autodesk for letting me choose to simply use the software if and when we actually need it.

I can now hire a freelancer, say someone with Brian Mulligan's skills, pay for one month of Smoke in my shop and we can keep everything in house and I'm out the one month fee instead of $3500. It's completely brilliant.

As of right now we have Avid, Autodesk and Adobe with subscriptions available. FCPX is only $299. Resolve 11 is free. Awesome time to be an editor right now. Only problem is figuring out which tool you actually want to use. All are so ridiculously affordable today.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

Craft and Career Advice & Training from real Working Creative Professionals

Blog Twitter Facebook


Return to posts index

Ian MacLean
Re: the new smoke sibscription model
on Apr 23, 2014 at 1:13:06 am

[walter biscardi] "All are so ridiculously affordable today."

Mr. Biscardi, thank you for all your work and articles and comments which I've read with pleasure over the years.

But it would be really nice if you could broaden your 'Pro' perspective to include a huge number of consumers - those to whom $100 is a lot of money. Those to whom buying Smoke 2013 is a major investment. Those who need a lot of time to learn how to use it. Those who need ownership in return for their investment. Even for those Pros who can't find work these days.

I'm aware your comment was most likely in relation to past price/performance, but still, there are a lot of us who would like to use pro tools if we could just get a little bit more of a break on the price. And not feel like we're constantly being manipulated to gouge a few hundred more here or there...


Return to posts index

walter biscardi
Re: the new smoke sibscription model
on Apr 23, 2014 at 1:16:49 am

[Ian MacLean] "But it would be really nice if you could broaden your 'Pro' perspective to include a huge number of consumers - those to whom $100 is a lot of money."

Smoke is in no way a "consumer tool" nor would I ever recommend it for any sort of consumer project. The price is incredible for what it is.

I'm honestly curious why you would feel the need to own Smoke as a consumer? I work with high school kids weekly who all use the Adobe suite. In fact one 13 year old has over 100 short films on YouTube already. I always recommend Adobe / Apple for those who want to work at a consumer level and still have access to high quality professional tools.

Seriously, I'm honestly curious how you use the tool and what you produce with it. I've worked in this industry over 25 years , have a full production facility and deliver hundreds of hours of original content each year and I don't even own Smoke at this time.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

Craft and Career Advice & Training from real Working Creative Professionals

Blog Twitter Facebook


Return to posts index

Ian MacLean
Re: the new smoke sibscription model
on Apr 23, 2014 at 1:39:25 am

With every post you show a complete absence of empathy for those without experience and a successful career.

I've wanted to be a filmmaker most of my life, have read industry publications for several decades, trained on Alias / Wavefront (Smoke's grandparents), and have saved and bought over $20,000 worth of equipment including a $5000 camera, lights, sound equipment, and enough carefully researched bargain gear to provide excellent high definition green screen images.

I've also worked on learning the craft of writing, and would like to do my own projects. EVERYTHING I've ever imagined in my head has been fully composited, and I've been waiting for software like Wavefront / Smoke since before it existed. Yet I have no paid industry experience, have never before had a chance to control my own product through reduced costs, and no regular income to supplement a subscription model of renting software.

I am a PROSUMER. That group that exists between kids editing skateboard videos on iMovie, and someone like you. Maybe I've got it all wrong. Maybe the MBA's at Autodesk corporate think like you, and offer this product so pro editors can save some coin between jobs, and that's all they're thinking. I've been under the impression this is a PROSUMER product: for aspiring filmmakers, those who need high quality, and will move up the chain to use even higher end products.

As Autodesk is so unfriendly / unavailable to rookies, I'm willing to concede that I have it all wrong. This software is a discount option for professional contractors, and I'm the outlier here.

You clearly can't imagine people who want to create their own visions, and who have limited resources. You're "honestly curious why you would feel the need to own Smoke as a consumer?" You're also clueless as to how condescending you are. I'll answer: Maybe you've been doing other's work for so long, you've forgotten what it's like to want to create something yourself.


Return to posts index

walter biscardi
Re: the new smoke sibscription model
on Apr 23, 2014 at 10:53:52 am

[Ian MacLean] "You clearly can't imagine people who want to create their own visions, and who have limited resources. You're "honestly curious why you would feel the need to own Smoke as a consumer?" You're also clueless as to how condescending you are. I'll answer: Maybe you've been doing other's work for so long, you've forgotten what it's like to want to create something yourself."

Talk about condescending. I'll just let you go about what you want to do and I'll just keep creating with the tools we have. Personal attacks always get you much more help than actually answering a question.

Best to you.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

Craft and Career Advice & Training from real Working Creative Professionals

Blog Twitter Facebook


Return to posts index

Ian MacLean
Re: the new smoke sibscription model
on Apr 23, 2014 at 6:37:12 pm

I apologize. Yesterday was fairly emotional for me. It would be really nice if you could empathize with a filmmaker who's imagined a movie in his head that he'd like to produce, and he spends years reading and researching every small detail necessary to make it. And waiting for the tools to drop in price. Here's the answer to your question: The reason I need / want Smoke is that my project is COMPOSITED. I want to create something which looks like the final five minutes of Freejack. I want it to blend and flow different filmed elements into each other smoothly yet in a way that isn't reality. It has the capacity to use animation / CGI to explain data and complex information perhaps as effectively as The Mechanical Universe (PBS / CalTech / 80's). It uses some of the techniques the Watchowski's used in Speed Racer.

So, I've been waiting for this software since I took classes in Wavefront on SGI machines. That requires some patience (about 20 years worth). I've kept busy learning other areas of filmmaking. My requirements for quality are a minimum 720p 30fps, 4:2:2, uncompressed. If I can output that, it will look good enough to create (and good enough when downgraded to Vimeo standards of whatever).

When Smoke was demoed, I wanted it. There has never been so many capabilities offered at so low a cost. When it was dropped from 16 grand to under 3, I could buy it. My project was delayed because of re-writing, but I'm now ready to learn the software I bought. Which has just been made better. So the stakes are higher for me than for you, who regards it as just another tool you don't even own (and don't need to).

I DO need to own it, so in a discussion about changing to a non ownership model, I am rather heavily invested, and passionate. Nothing you wrote indicated any empathy for this. Nor any awareness of any production levels between Adobe in schools and professional post houses, and to the independent aspiring talent out there (who have been hit hard by the economic collapse), your attitude can come off as dismissive to anyone not working for good pay.

The subject of this forum is a program which was offered by its manufacturer for under $3000. Does Creative Cow welcome the little guy who's starved to be able to produce beautiful and high quality images? Because this thread can give the impression that some corporate MBA's expert in profit margins figured out a better way to squeeze blood out of clientele, and those post contractors who still have jobs are high fiveing them about it.


Return to posts index

Walter Soyka
Re: the new smoke sibscription model
on Apr 23, 2014 at 1:28:53 am

[Ian MacLean] "But it would be really nice if you could broaden your 'Pro' perspective to include a huge number of consumers - those to whom $100 is a lot of money. Those to whom buying Smoke 2013 is a major investment. Those who need a lot of time to learn how to use it. Those who need ownership in return for their investment."

You still have the Smoke 2013 that you bought. That license was perpetual, and you are still entitled to it. Your ownership hasn't changed.

It sounds like you decided not to stay current on your maintenance subscription. If you had renewed your subscription when it came due, you'd be entitled now to a perpetual license of Smoke 2015. Since you did not, the new terms are subscription-only going forward.

It's not fair to those of us buying the products and keeping current on our subscription fees if you could get the same benefits of subscription without paying.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


Return to posts index

Ian MacLean
Re: the new smoke sibscription model
on Apr 23, 2014 at 1:49:33 am

[Walter Soyka] "It's not fair to those of us buying the products and keeping current on our subscription fees if you could get the same benefits of subscription without paying."

And yet I feel as if I'm the one who hasn't been treated fairly. I wouldn't have bought the software at a higher price point than their sale price in Jan 2013. I also was under the impression that when I buy 12 months worth of subscription, I will get 12 months when I activate it. Bzzz! wrong.

And for them to suck me in with a bargain price which they know (at the time) will strand me when they come out with an update version 15 months in the future is a manipulation. There are a million examples of other corporations not stranding their customers with legacy versions as they know that gaming their user base is bad business - especially when good business is based on bringing in new users.

They also never stated that a lapsed (even if never activated) subscription can't be reactivated. Or maybe they did in the fine print. 15 months ago I paid them a lot (for me) of money. For software, and subscription. And now I'm out and unable to own Smoke 2015. You really, actually, think that's a good way for a business to treat it's customers?


Return to posts index

Walter Soyka
Re: the new smoke sibscription model
on Apr 23, 2014 at 2:24:57 am

[Ian MacLean] "They also never stated that a lapsed (even if never activated) subscription can't be reactivated. Or maybe they did in the fine print. 15 months ago I paid them a lot (for me) of money. For software, and subscription. And now I'm out and unable to own Smoke 2015. You really, actually, think that's a good way for a business to treat it's customers?"

If you really tried to take this up with them before 4/22 when Smoke 2015 was released and were put off, I think you should continue to follow up with your reseller to see if they could help.

But ultimately, I do think it's your responsibility to understand what you've bought, and they'd be doing you a big favor if they honor your subscription. A maintenance agreement is meant to keep you current during its term. Under maintenance, you are effectively pre-paying for your upgrades and receiving them at a discount versus non-maintenance customers. It's win-win: the developers get a guaranteed, predictable income stream from subscription customers, and those customers get regular and cheaper updates. If you could choose when to "activate" your subscription, or if you could freely hop on and off subscription with no extra fees, it would upset this balance.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


Return to posts index

Ian MacLean
Re: the new smoke sibscription model
on Apr 23, 2014 at 2:48:58 am

I don't have a reseller, I bought the software and subscription from them directly. They ran their sale right from their home page. So that's the first problem.

I brought this up with a nice guy at NAB two weeks ago exactly. Been on hold since. And how is 2015 released on 4/22 (today)? It's not on their web page. I can still buy 2013, and subscription with it, but not just the subscription as a stand alone...

How would one 'hop' on and off something that lasts 12 months? That's more like a ferris wheel that you're either on, or off, but you're there for a year.

My responsibility to understand? Have a look at their current FAQ. This is the FAQ, not the actual legal documents, and the links to the relevant information aren't currently working (Previous Version Eligible Product List). So anyone buying it today has indeed, quite a responsibility (to have a law degree) as the language is impenetrable: http://knowledge.autodesk.com/search-result/caas/sfdcarticles/sfdcarticles/...

And you show me, where in their webpage do they clearly state that subscriptions which aren't renewed before they expire will cost you the ability to upgrade to a new version? Because I certainly was never aware of it.

And frankly I don't follow your logic. I buy a 12 month subscription, there are 2 updates, it expires, and I go without subscription for 12 months. In that time there are 2 more updates. Why not sell me the option of buying that subscription now, to get those two updates? That costs them nothing. Why lock me out? It's putting a gun to the head of your customer base. Bad business.


Return to posts index

Walter Soyka
Re: the new smoke sibscription model
on Apr 23, 2014 at 3:07:49 am

Ian, I am not trying to argue with you. I am trying to help you. It sounds like you kind of jumped into the deep end on this one.

Maintenance subscriptions are generally pretty well understood among Autodesk's target customers, but since you are not familiar with them, I'm trying to give you some background.

I really think you should get in touch with Autodesk's customer service, explain your situation, and see if they are able to help you.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog - What I'm thinking when my workstation's thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events


Return to posts index

Ian MacLean
Re: the new smoke sibscription model
on Apr 23, 2014 at 3:40:12 am

Thank you, I appreciate it.

I think you may have nailed the issue: "among their target customers." When something as awesome as Smoke drops below 3 grand, you're going to get new customers who don't have an experienced department head negotiating a contract. So there are going to be problems if you don't step up service and simplify options.

I've been passed from a Sales Department Executive to some woman in Sales Operations, but she has passed on my situation to someone else and has told me she'll get back to me when she gets a response. No news since Thursday. Just waiting...


Return to posts index

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
© 2017 CreativeCOW.net All Rights Reserved
[TOP]