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Can Smoke read an r3d clip's camera info, such as ISO, but also let me change color space?

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Josh Spivack
Can Smoke read an r3d clip's camera info, such as ISO, but also let me change color space?
on Nov 28, 2012 at 6:40:25 pm

We are doing a project that most involves RED files. I love Smoke because I can easily bring in these files at full debayer, connect them to a xml and export dpx sequences from there.
Here's my $64,000 question: If I use a program such as REDCine, I can see the clips original ISO and other color settings, tint, etc., as well as the color space. I want to allow Smoke to utilize some of this information while having the ability to override the color space for all clips. Everything we export needs to be in REDcolor3 and REDlogFilm. That is the one constant. We don't necessarily want the ISO to be constant or the tint to stay the same since it did vary in each clip and that depends on when and where and how it was shot. I haven't found a way to let Smoke read the clips meta data on these aspects but to remain constant in my color space. It seems to be all or nothing, once I customize color space I have to select my desired Kelvin, tint, ISO, etc. Obviously I am in my RED file format import settings. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you,
Josh


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Grant Kay
Re: Can Smoke read an r3d clip's camera info, such as ISO, but also let me change color space?
on Nov 29, 2012 at 12:32:05 pm

Hi,

The short answer is yes. Autodesk works with RED and uses their SDK to get native R3D files working. That also includes all the adjustments you are after.

Just select your R3D clip in the media library and change the tab menu to FORMAT SPECIFIC.

with the R3D clip selected you will get the R3D options. Change the menu from METADATA to DEBAYER or COLOUR. You can choose the settings you want but you can also set it to manual so you have access to every bit of metadata embedded in the R3D file.

Regards
Grant

Check out the Smoke Learning Channel

Youtube - http://www.youtube.com/smokehowtos
or search for the Smoke Learning Channel on iTunes
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Josh Spivack
Re: Can Smoke read an r3d clip's camera info, such as ISO, but also let me change color space?
on Dec 10, 2012 at 8:27:58 pm

Grant,

Thank you for the reply. Sorry I am just getting back to this. My only question is where I select "format specific." I see under "format" the R3D file setting which I use to manually tell it what to do, but it never picks up the metadata. I wonder if by "format specific" you are asking me to do what I already am doing, which is selecting the file type (r3d) under format. From there I select my debayer but from there, colour is limited unless I switch it from "camera" to user. It still doesn't seem to be picking up the tint settings, etc.


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Neil Sadwelkar
Re: Can Smoke read an r3d clip's camera info, such as ISO, but also let me change color space?
on Jan 21, 2013 at 4:59:13 am

Did you find an answer to this?
Is what you're looking for, something like a DaVinci Resolve feature where you can allow Red files to retain camera metadata settings, project-wide settings, or clip-by-clip settings. Did you eventually find Smoke able to do ths?

-----------------------------------
Neil Sadwelkar
neilsadwelkar.blogspot.com
twitter: fcpguru
FCP Editor, Edit systems consultant
Mumbai India


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Josh Spivack
Re: Can Smoke read an r3d clip's camera info, such as ISO, but also let me change color space?
on Jan 21, 2013 at 8:18:42 pm

Actually, no I haven't.
Mr. Kay's response was helpful and he's easily one of the best helpers on here, but for this I couldn't find what he meant when he told me to select the r3d file and select "format specific." What I do do is select the red file, go to to format and select "r3d" so I can set certain settings (there is no "format specific?'). I know how to read the clips metadata from the viewer info, so I could set it myself manually but don't know how to tell it to do it itself. This is very important because, lets say I'm using a huge amount of red clips shot over a couple of days to connect to a single edl/xml, I'd need Smoke to ensure that it can read each individual r3d clip's settings since on a different day the ISO for example may have changed. I'd like to say, "here's the edl, here are 800 clips, connect using the clip's metadata to determine the ISO/Kevlin, etc." so I don't have to chose 1 ISO setting for all of them; or, chose an ISO setting for the one's I know that are at say 800, then another for the ones I know are at a different level, constantly reconnecting media. The extra credit would be to be able to tell Smoke to read certain metadata but to keep certain settings that I set throughout all the clips, such as my colorspace.

Any help from you or anyone is naturally greatly appreciated.

Josh.


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Brian Mulligan
Re: Can Smoke read an r3d clip's camera info, such as ISO, but also let me change color space?
on Jan 21, 2013 at 8:41:47 pm

Everything is under the "Format Specific Options" TAB. In the lower left there is a popup manu for Metadata, Debayer, Color, Image, Adv.. Color, and Curve.

You can set the Color options to be REDcolor3 and REDlogFilm. You can then switch to Image and set the ISO. and related settings.

The RMD/Camera Setting under color might be what you want.
Smoke imports RED clips using the RMD look created in REDCINE-X, or fall back on the camera settings if there is no RMD settings.
Disables the Image, Gain, and Curve menu options.

More info here:
http://wikihelp.autodesk.com/Smoke/enu/2013/Help/User_Guide/0025-Importin25...

Brian Mulligan
Senior Editor - Autodesk Smoke
WTHR-TV Indianapolis,IN, USA
Twitter: @bkmeditor


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Josh Spivack
Re: Can Smoke read an r3d clip's camera info, such as ISO, but also let me change color space?
on Jan 21, 2013 at 9:48:27 pm

Brian,
Thanks for your response. I THINK but could easily be wrong, that you are talking about Smoke 2013, however we are using 2012. For the life of me I can't find Format Specific but I do recognize a lot of what you are saying, such as selecting the clips ISO settings and Kevlin, etc., using the "format---r3d" and then selecting all the other info (it would then use those settings for all the clips I import) but in 2012 I can't get it to let me change some things, like colorspace, without it then losing the metadata for other things, like ISO. Case in point: As I type I'm looking at a r3d file, I can read its metadata and it seems to get it right. However when I go to "colour" I cannot change my color space without changing the camera settings to "user." When I do this, grayed out tabs are now available to me when they weren't before, but the ISO and other metadata seems to be thrown out the door and it starts at what appears to be an arbitrary number (for instance, here it should be an ISO of 800 but it switches to 320).
Perhaps I switch to user temporarily to switch the colorspace and then switch back to "camera" for the other things? How would Smoke know which settings of mine to keep and which to read from the clip?
I also assume your talking about 2013 since your link is for 2013. We will upgrade when it's finally ready, which last I heard is quarter 4 of this year, so hopefully we can get an answer on 2012 if indeed you were discussing '13.

Thanks!


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Brian Mulligan
Re: Can Smoke read an r3d clip's camera info, such as ISO, but also let me change color space?
on Jan 21, 2013 at 10:04:06 pm

Yikes! Sorry. I saw the post in my email and just clicked the thread. Didn't realize it was refering to 2012 Smoke. However, it appears that the same functionality is still available.

The Color and Image settings should be the same. So the RMD/Camera setting should act the same in 2012. So if you chose .r3D and look at the settings do you have a blur popup for Metadata/Color/Image?

I think Grant was also thinking 2013.

Brian Mulligan
Senior Editor - Autodesk Smoke
WTHR-TV Indianapolis,IN, USA
Twitter: @bkmeditor


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Josh Spivack
Re: Can Smoke read an r3d clip's camera info, such as ISO, but also let me change color space?
on Jan 21, 2013 at 10:52:30 pm

It seems to but I can't change some settings without losing all the metadata. Basically you select under format "r3d" and in the tabs to the left you have metadata, debayers and colour. 3 others are grayed out. If I go to colour the only way to change colorspace and un-gray other tabs is to select either "user" or "RSX or user." Doing so immediately changes the ISO of the clip. I know this because while the ISO setting lives in the grayed out "image" tab which I can't see before "user" is initiated, I can resubmit the ISO after user is submitted to what it should be and I can see based on the thumbnail that it looks as it did before I switched it. Hope that makes sense.
I do want to try a backdoor way though so I'm going to test this: I will select user, change the colorspace, then select "camera" again and see if by any chance it keeps my colorspace but re-reads the clips original metadata. To test I'll export it like this and then important that and compare it to the same clip in Red Cine.
Of course, this might not work and you might have some of your own ideas but this is where I am out for now.
Thanks again,
Josh


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Josh Spivack
Re: Can Smoke read an r3d clip's camera info, such as ISO, but also let me change color space?
on Jan 22, 2013 at 8:54:45 pm

So I did just want to share what I've discovered and what I think Smoke will allow. This is useful for anyone trying to import clips using the camera's setting for red files while manipulating some aspects, specifically in my case the color space. If anyone with better knowledge has more information I would love to hear it.

In 2012, you select your format as of course r3d but can only change a few things at first. Changing debayering has no effect on the clips metadata other than to change how Smoke reads its resolution. However, if you want to change the color space, you must switch your setting from "camera" to "user" in the colour tab. The problem is, this resets, automatically, all the metadata that came with the clip, from your ISO to your Kelvin to you name it, all default numbers, seemingly arbitrary since they contradict camera info (after all, Smoke no longer even thinks to look for the clips metadata here since it's on "user." There needs to be a "user/camera" setting but there isn't.) I've tried a variety of tricks, changing it in user, then going back to camera and getting the best of both, using the rules settings to my advantage (which is useless because unless there was a bug the rules should follow the same guidelines as above, and they do), trying to "save as user setting" when in camera mode to keep those settings in user mode---all to no avail. Smoke, it seems in 2012, won't let you change some metadata without losing it all first (you could of course write it down and re-enter it in user but that's ridiculous and time staking if you have different clips).
SO, if your change is small but important like changing the color space while maintaing ISO info, I suggest using the backdoor method of first getting your clip in Red-Cine-X, changing whatever you want there (Red-Cine-X doesn't kill all the other metadata if you adjust some of it) and then exporting or saving over the .rmd file. Then, go back into smoke and now instead of user or camera select "rmd/camera" and Smoke will read the rmd info that you just set and you won't have to do anything else.

Hope this helps anyone in the same situation.

Josh


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