Encore CS6 and Bluray
I've been previously using DVD Architect to create DVDs with a file from Vegas rendered with the DVD Architect template (mpeg2).
Now, I'm moving into Encore, and have my project all ready to burn. I created the hi-def mpeg video in vegas (around 50GB). When I go to pres "build" for bluray, it tells me that it will only take up around 702MB on a 25GB bluray! I checked the project setting, and it's set to maximum transcode at 40Mbps.
Upon import, what did Encore show for in the Project Panel under the Bluray Transcode Status column?
The maximum is only relevant for motion asset rendering by Encore.
Did you say "a" file?
It says "untranscoded". I specifically rendered it as an mpeg2 bluray settings in Vegas... I just can't figure out what settings to use to get it into Encore without it having to transcode it again...
I would export a short bit from Vegas, and see if Encore sees that as untranscoded. What are the Vegas export settings? What are the characteristics of the actual file that was exported (mediainfo or the like).
It was an HD file 1920x1080.
What would be the best settings in both Edius and vegas to export the file to Encore for DVD/bluray authoring?
export as quicktime or avi-movie using AVID DNX (if installed), or maybe photo-jpeg.
if you are on a mac it would be more simple, because you can choose apple PRO RES.
Even if you encoded the file to a proper H.264 Blu-ray or MPEG-2 Blu-ray format before importing to Encore, it would still need to transcode IF the file is too large to fit the media. You said the file is 50GB, which is probably too large for even a dual-layer Blu-ray since the media in reality holds less than the advertised 25GB or 50GB capacity.
What is the length of the program? While MPEG-2 can look very good at high bitrates, H.264 has the definite advantage for longer programs that must be encoded at lower bitrates, so you might consider using the H.264 instead for best quality.
I don't change ANY settings in Encore - I encode my DVD and Blu-ray assets in Adobe Media Encoder and just Import them into Encore and they always work. As soon as one starts changing a bunch of settings (with the best of intentions), it causes issues more often than not. Use the defaults to start with for best results.
Also, is your clip multiplexed? Meaning audio and video in one file together? Encore would want separate video and audio files.
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Jeff, good points. I made two assumptions: if it was just total size, it should show "do not transcode" with a warning for disk over size; also, since he used an mpeg2-bluray preset, it should be demuxed. But I don't compressor, and could be wrong.
I tried encoding the file in AME but when I brought it into Encore as a transcoded asset it showed me a red screen and the quality was terrible! Since I split the media into 2 parts, it was down to 22GB, so I thought I had finally got it - was quite disappointed as the client wants their wedding video already!
For best results, use an encoder such as AME or Apple Compressor to encode a Blu-ray compliant H.264. Don't max-out the bitrate -- 25 to 30Mb/s is enough, depending on your bit-budget. Encode Dolby stereo or surround using the same encoders. Don't let Encore do a default transcode. Right click on the picture and sound streams inside the project and select "Do Not Transcode".
Senior Editor/DVD Author
New York City
Help us to help you, we need more details of the workflow.
Length of the video?
How did you get the video from Vegas or Edius over to AME? You must have encoded it to some other format first, what was it?
What preset was used in AME, H.264 Blu-ray or MPEG-2 Blu-ray?
Encoding data rate?
What do you mean by "red screen"? If you can post screen grabs of the red screen issue, as well as the AME export settings panel, that would be most helpful.
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I generally use Vegas to edit as I find it quick and easy. I can finish a wedding video in an hour with a very satisfied client. My main problem is that with using the DVD architect template to prepare for DVD, I'm getting such bad quality discs. (only when down-converting from HD to SD). I see that it's a big problem, but there's got to be an answer to it.
I was told that Edius is much better in that it doesn't "render", so the quality is much better. This person told me to edit in Edius and create my menus in Encore. I'm a graphic designer, so I'm very fluent with the Adobe interface, making Encore easy to figure out. Problem is that it doesn't have the same features as DVD Architect. I can't just import a large video and have Encore compress based on the media size that I want to fit it to. (unless I just didn't figure it out yet!)
Someone told me to use a bitrate calculator to figure out the best bitrate based on the project and it's great. Problem is that you can't do more than 9.8bps on a DVD and I'm not getting that crisp quality that I want.
Basically, this job that I'm working on now, and trying to be done with, is a wedding that edited, is 5 hours and 15 minutes. Most of the footage was shot in HD, but for a couple parts they had a second camera crew and it was shot in SD widescreen on mini DVs. I divided the project to fit onto 2 Bluray but the file size was still too large for Encore, and since there is no "fit to disc" option, I'd need to bring it into AME. There are so many settings, and they don't tell you what the final size will be - and the render takes so long!!
So my 2 problems are:
1. I need the best settings to get this video from Vegas to 2 BD in Encore.
2. I need the best settings for 4 DVDs - I'm using DL.
Thanks for everyone's replies.
I can't wait to get to the bottom of this!
Wow, delivering 5+ hours of footage - Indian wedding?? Would love to know how you edit a wedding in one hour, that deserves its own thread.
The 9.8 max bitrate of DVD is not what is limiting the "crispness" of your DVDs - rather, it is most likely the fact that you're comparing the results to the HD master, and DVD is SD. Of course, the quality of the downscale plays a part as well. If that is handled poorly by the encoding software, then all the bitrate in the world won't help. In fact, I should mention that it's not a good idea to "max out" the DVD bitrate, since DVD-R discs may not play as reliably as Hollywood DVDs when burned at a high rate. Most folks limit themselves to 7 or 8 when encoding. Honestly, 7 or 8 will look very good and you'd be hard-pressed to see any difference going higher, while risking playback compatibility with some players.
If using AME for any encoding tasks, be sure to check the "Max Render Quality" box when downscaling the output. If you DO use AME at all, but are editing in other apps, how are you getting the footage to AME, in other words what intermediate codec did you use?
I'd say you were misinformed about Edius "not rendering". That might be in reference to some sort of "Smart Render" feature, in particular for exporting AVCHD direct to Blu-ray perhaps. Much better quality? No. Faster, sure. But regardless of what NLE you use, if you are editing HD footage and want to export for DVD, the video MUST get rendered! How else would you get from AVCHD 1080p down to MPEG-2 DVD for instance? Two completely different formats/codecs, has to render.
According to a bitrate calculator I tried, 165 minutes for Blu-ray would encode at 18750, but that doesn't allow for motion menus and other overhead. Might want to go a little less for safety margin. And for best quality, use an H.264 Blu-ray encoding preset, better than MPEG-2 at low bitrates.
For DVD, if using DL discs, then TWO would be enough. As a customer, I would be aggravated to have to keep getting up and changing discs to see different parts of the wedding, so I'd use as few discs as possible. Whether using two DL DVDs, or four standard DVDs, an average bitrate of 6.9 should do nicely for the 5 hour 15 minute video if divided equally.
Regarding letting Encore figure the bit rate automatically, I never use that workflow - I always manually encode my assets in AME - so am not positive, but I thought that if for example you import an AVI movie into Encore, it will do the transcoding automatically for you to fit. Maybe the auto-fit was only with Dynamic Link. Dunno.
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> I thought that if for example you import an AVI movie into Encore, it will do the transcoding automatically for you to fit. Maybe the auto-fit was only with Dynamic Link.
Just make sure all other motion menu etc work is done, all assets are linked, and set each timeline asset to "automatic." Encore sets the datarate to fill the disk. You have less control over transcode settings, but the automatic is used by many.
Let me just make sure I understand...
I create a menu and bring in my asset. I like my menu to have all the links on the home page, and there is one link that plays the whole video.
Where would I set it to automatic?
[Michal Goldstein] "Where would I set it to automatic?"
Sorry; just saw this. The automatic has nothing to do with links, only with the transcode setting.
Bottom line for you, do what Jeff is describing. Automatic requires a lossless intermediate or dynamic link.
But for the information, you right click the asset for the timeline, pick "transcode settings," and pick automatic (for DVD and/or Bluray).
Ok. Will give it a try.
Thank you. Thank you.
Finally someone is making sense.
What file type should I render from Vegas? Are you saying that I should create a hi-quality file and then encode it?
Here are my steps.
1. I edit the video in Vegas.
2. I render it to the mpeg-2 preset (either "dvd architect" or "bluray")
3. I bring that file into Encore as an asset.
4. I create my menu and link all the buttons to the right place. It plays beautifully at this point, and the quality is nice for the bluray, but I'm seeing the fuzziness in the DVDs.
5. The output size is too large, so it automatically brings the file into AME when I click "transcode" - and I'm left with tons of presets to choose from.
6. I figured out a good bitrate and set it for render. It took time, and then it still didn't fit...
How can I take my file from Vegas and render it customized to fit my size limit?
What do you think is the best program to edit in that gives the best encoding? I'm willing to figure out another program if I hear good about it. I have Premiere CS6, Edius7, and Vegas 12, but work best and quickest in Vegas... I also, genarally use DVD architect to build my DVDs, but just started trying out Encore as I appreciate it's ability to work together with Photoshop.
Thanks so much!
If you know the duration of all your assets and use the correct bitrate to start with, then things ought to fit the DVD. Calculators are nice, but for DVD I just use 560/minutes = bitrate, and usually round down the result a little for safety. For example 560/120 = 4.66 so I encode at 4.5 and everyone is happy. Formula is for 4.7GB DVD media only.
You mentioned encoding to MPEG-2 for Blu-ray. While MPEG-2 can look just as good as H.264 at high bitrates, for longer programs at lower rates, then H.264 has the definite advantage and should be the codec of choice.
I do have a workflow for great HD to DVD quality, but it is not for the faint of heart. Involves installing several pieces of free software, and some extra time and labor during the conversion process, but I love the results. Just search for "HD2SD" workflow. Beyond the scope of this forum to cover the whole process unfortunately.
Basically, I'm exporting an HD .avi file from Premiere using the lossless Lagarith codec. That HD file then gets converted to SD using the "HD2SD" script in VirtualDub, and the resulting SD avi file is then encoded to MPEG-2 using HC Encoder. Then Encore for authoring. I get spectacular results with 2.5 hour dance recitals on one 4.7GB DVD.
PM me for specifics
If you can post any screen grabs of your encoding settings, that will be most helpful to analyze the situation.
For a workflow where you'd bring a clip over to AME or Encore from another NLE for final encoding, export to a lossless codec like the free Lagarith, or I think Grass Valley has a decent 4:2:2 codec with EDIUS you could use. You don't want to use a lossy intermediate such as H.264 though.
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I ran into a very similar or nearly identical issue and found this thread. I hope you will be able to comment on it as reading through the thread did not give me any clues.
I exported a 1hr17min HD clip (Matrox AVI 1080i 29.97) from CS6 to a MAtrox H.264 1080p 23.98fps, with
- using 40Mbps bitrate for video,
- 16bit audio
and the resulting
- H.264 video file was 22.xGB
- and the audio was ~800MB
- imported these into Encore CS6 as a timeline
- right clicked on each file, then Locate Transcoded File, selected the same files from the file system.
- left Blu-ray Transcode settings as Automatic (which means use Project Defaults)
- verified Check Project successfully (no errors)
When I go to build a disc image, it shows 15.6GB image size!
My project settings have default transcode settings for bluray set to use 40Mbps for video (H.264).
So I did Revert to Original action on the .264 video file, went into Transcode Settings, changed the Quality Preset Settings for Matrox H.264 1080 23.98fps to use 40Mbps bitrate, saved the changes and when I re-locate transcoded file and do a build image, the image size is 3.86GB!!
I normally don't change the bitrate during export from AME or from CS6, when exporting to H.264 - but this time I did as I wanted to use as much of the bluray disc as possible.
Is Encore CS6 limiting the size of the image??
A couple of things catch my attention:
1) Why did you encode a 1080i 29.97 source as 1080p 23.98 for Blu-ray - was that intentional?
2) 40Mbps is the theoretical upper limit for Blu-ray, could be that the audio put it over the limit and therefore Encore is transcoding to the lower default rate.
Please note that H.264 for Blu-ray can look excellent at 25 or 30Mbps or less, there is no real need to "max out" the data rate to get great quality.
As with DVD, just "looking for trouble" when encoding at very high rates. Some players that might be ok with high data rates on store-bought movies will not work well with home-burned media at high rates. Play it safe and use a lower bitrate, no one will ever see the difference.
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1 - yes that was intentional to encode to Matrox H.264 1080p 23.98, I think it was because I liked that look better for some clips. If you have any recommendations on why this need not be done or should not be done, please share. This has always been my workflow. Capture to 1080i 29.97 Matrox AVI, export to H.264 23.98, import to Encore, build/burn. Maybe I will try to encode to Matrox H.264 1080i 29.97.
2 - I just remembered that I had 'filled up' another bluray disk w/ a 22.xGB image size and it was not the bitrate that did this, but the duration, while keeping the bitrate default of either 25 (4.1) or 15 (4.0) in the Matrox preset.
3. When I tried to build image using the 40MBps bit rate Matrox H.264 video file, after importing the file, Encore threw an error that the bitrate of the file exceeds the bluray spec - like you said. So, I guess the practical limit is lower than the theoretical limit. Although I recall being able to go up to 30-35Mbps.
Lastly my q was more about why the image file size REDUCED to 3.86GB, when I simply increased the bitrate to 40Mbps in Transcode Settings, but went back to 15.xGB when I reverted to default Transcode Settings of 15Mbps or 25Mbps.
I would expect then that Encore CS6 to not give the option of a 40MBps bit rate in the Project Settings or Default Transcode Settings.
thank you again for your prompt reply.
If you want to change the frame rate and are happy with the resulting look, that is fine, just wanted to make sure that was your intention. Sometimes, changing frame rates produce undesirable results.
I never change the default transcode settings in Encore, for DVD or Blu-ray. As I'm encoding compliant assets right out of Premiere, they remain unchanged in Encore. Some people have complained that Encore does not always show the correct file size estimate, could be what you have encountered
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Thank you Jeff.
I used the defaults and it built the image just fine.
I just read through this and Thought I'd add something...
mpeg2 some have said means an mpeg file, while mpeg2dvd is a preset. For those who like everything to be spelled out perfectly (i.e. the anal OCD sufferers who think they're the best at everything and just have to try and prove it), go in the other room for a bit and let the grown ups talk. For the rest of you, whom I cherish as friends (though I've never met you and I'm not asking to):
Mpeg2 encodings for DVD and H264 both get transcoded by encore as separated files of video and audio, but it will only list one of them, and will only allow you to pick the video as an asset from within cs6 encore after you transcode with presets in encore or AME. Here are a few tips I've put together as I've seen the issues in my recent work:
1. If you're going from your raw video stream, try to match the bit rate as close as possible. This will cut down on reencoding time. First, rip the audio in an uncompressed WAV file, and find out all you can about it. I usually save it as a PCM MOV format, and then use any player with an advanced inspection window to grab the audio file info. This lets me adjust for audio bitrate.
2. AME doesn't separate the video encodings as well on its own. I usually pass it out as a full format, then compress. I've used AVC and prores. Remember that your bit rate adjusts how much information will move through the system every second, and this will also adjust the JPEG quality of your frames. JPEG is a compressed image. Top that off with the fact that only the changes are tracked, and even those are compressed down, you will be dropping some data in favor of speed. When the data is moved, the pieces are put back together on the fly, and even with the loss of some quality in the frames, it's extremely difficult, if not impossible, to tell. That said, you can use any encoder that will allow you to make an MPEG2 m2v stream to encode for dvd or bluray, just make it as a separated video stream (no audio), and make an ec3 or ac3 audio file for audio. When you are in encore, right click the asset and click "Locate Transcode" if you are using a sequence or a standard video, and then pick the video, then it will ask for audio. By separating their encodes, you don't link the files within one another the way encore does, and it will allow you to pick both separately.
3. IF you are using the same format for either disc, remember, DVD has a max rate of about 15mbps. Blu-ray AVCHD encoded to dvd will use this maximum. Standard DVD is defined as 8-10mbps, with audio. If you are in full res and fullest quality when you start, then the encoding will have better quality at lower bitrates, because it will be more accurate. In such instances, you can settle for a single pass VBR.
4. If you are encoding from raw streams, you may want to use a 2 pass algorithm with VBR, and also, you may want to set aside some serious time... ...it will take a while. Set your DVD at 9mpbs max, 8mbps target in AME, and in others, you can set the min to 5, giving you a wide area to encode, and maintain quality. Set your audio to AC3 encoding at 512bps or less. With H264 you can go 25mbps max with 15mbps at the low end. If you want to use the same encoding for both, set your mpeg2 for your blu-ray to 15-25, which will increase quality unless you also bump the resolution up one step. They will both look similar when played back on smaller screens, but on larger screens there will be a difference.
Raw-- I use FCP for raw encodes and simple clips. It allows me to just make a quick cut and spit out something for the web. Other than that, it's useless. I usually do multi cam, and when I spit out a clip for a preview, it's just one cam. I archive everything and back it up. I always use VBR, with standard quality settings on the encoding. When I use a single cam, and just want to output to a disc, I encode to avchd using compressor if I go bluray, and separate the task among several computers ( i do similar with m2v for dvd and just use the preset boundaries in compressor with DVD). With RAW I always set a 2 pass encoding, which scans each frame with a second algorithm to define changes, and find areas where it can compress the frame. This increases file size (in my experience) and increases quality. Just remember, the encoding uses 2 passes. The playback uses 1. Playback usually reverses the original single pass algorithm (again with some loss) to rebuild each frame on the fly.
I use Premiere pro for editing larger multi cam projects. There have been complaints about sync issues with sound. Let me clarify this for you... ...Premiere doesn't crash like all the others when you try to synchronize the sound. If the sound slips away from the video, it's because the source has a variable frame rate (most cameras do this by default to combat camera shake, but the algorithm does make mistakes). To combat this, adobe lets you fix smaller problems with this phenomena by transcoding your video to a full format, and if you turn on frame blending, it will fix the missing frames for you, keeping sync. CC will also try to sync by audio on it's own now. It does well, I've only used CC twice, but I like the workflow well enough to call it one of the better features. The bulk of my work is in cs5 or 6, and I rent out the studio space as needed. I render out the full files to RAID drives, then create proxies if I deem necessary, and go from there. I always transcode before an edit. Let me say that again: I ALWAYS TRANSCODE BEFORE EDITING LARGER PROJECTS ESPECIALLY IF THE CAMERAS ARE:
1. MIXED BRAND
2. PROSUMER OR CONSUMER GRADE OR PHONE OR DEVICE
I just wish that there was a way to get the video into a machine using the AVCHD folder as a file, that way it would see it as a whole video. The transport streams are all separated...
When I have to put them together, the transport streams can be a big pain in the butt. However, Prelude is a big help. Since I probably need to transcode anyway, I use it to tie them together. First, create presets for the work in AME and turn on frame blending before saving the preset. Go to prelude, set it up to grab all the files, select the first one, hold shift and select the last; now click on concatenate box, and give the new file a name, pick your transcode preset and let it go. With RAID drives, this is a little faster. With faster gfx cards and processors, it flies. Now the stream will be transcoded as a single file, and with the frame blending on, dropped frames that occur in some camera transport streams are repaired (since it's usually a small 1-2frame drop, it really doesn't show). Audio becomes a problem at this point. Some cameras drop audio in between stream points when recording to cards instead of discs or tapes. The reason is that the file system, processor and amount of active memory in the camera are not fast or resilient enough to buffer the data properly. With a disc, the data is written in blocks and the next block is queued such that it's max size is always the same; when that pushes beyond the stream transport buffer size, a new chunk is created, on the fly, preventing the drop in data transport.
Prelude is a great place to create your clips for log-and transport operations, but it lacks the same kick that FCP has. It's more of a file prep than it is a logging app. You can transport the rough cuts to premiere as sequences, and use them like clips, but it still lacks that metadata connection. Personally, I'd love to take a class that taught metadata tagging and logging. I haven't been able to find one. I'd be happy to hear of any you find online, though I usually prefer local campus and interaction with people over the cold interpolated calculation of a computer screen.
Hope this is useful to you.
Trying to get in touch with Jeff...how do I message him...need help with Adobe Media Encoder and exporting for Blu ray...Thanks!
Black Tie Productions
jeffp at sharbor dot com
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