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Will PAL Blu-Ray Players play Blu-Rays From Encore made at 23.98?

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Schroeder Eric
Will PAL Blu-Ray Players play Blu-Rays From Encore made at 23.98?
on Feb 26, 2010 at 7:27:33 pm

Aloha,

So I was requested by a client last night to make a PAL blu-ray, and I now know this is possible by bringing in a 50I file. However, I'm curious if I could have just made it 23.976 if it would have worked in PAL dominant areas. I fired up Adobe Encore and when setting up a new PAL project and playing with the settings, the only option to get a progressive scan for PAL is going to be:

1280x1080 at 50 FPS

Whenever the other (2) options are selected

1440x1080
1920x1080

The only option in regards to field dominance defaults to Upper field first at 50i for these PAL project settings. I really want it to be progressive.

It seems the only way to get a full on Progressive scanned at HD sizes such at 1920x1080 & 1440x1080 in Encore is to make a project at a frame rate of 23.976. For Encore however, the only time this is allowed is if I set the television standard to be NTSC and the drop down menu for frame rate selection than allows me to select 23.976. This leads me to ask:

Do people in PAL formatted areas that have Blu-Ray players have the capability to play back on there Players at 23.976? The fact that Encore doesn't have a dropdown for 23.976 when the television standard is set to PAL throws red flags up in mind on this capability and I'm wondering if anyone has tested this out before.


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eric pautsch
Re: Will PAL Blu-Ray Players play Blu-Rays From Encore made at 23.98?
on Feb 27, 2010 at 12:30:02 am

Yes...all BD players playback 23.98. Your source is what specs? Interlaced? Why do you want it to be progressive so bad? General Rule of thump, unless you plan on Web playback only, dont de-interlace?

Yes...for 23.98 you'd make it NTSC and encode 23.98 but I think you need a 50i disc here. Encore's a piece of sh*t, so take everything it does and says with a grain of salt - especially with BD.





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Larry Applegate
Re: Will PAL Blu-Ray Players play Blu-Rays From Encore made at 23.98?
on Feb 28, 2010 at 1:35:21 am

Technically, PAL refers to SD, but the situation is similar in BD. Most European players will play both 50 and 60 Hz frame rates, and many US players won't play 50 Hz. The best solution is indeed 23.976, which will anywhere.

Here is a tutorial on how to convert from 50i to 23.976 progressive from our European representative:

http://blustreak.dvdafteredit.com/1080i50-2398p-workflow

Regards,

Larry Applegate
http://blustreak.dvdafteredit.com/


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Schroeder Eric
Re: Will PAL Blu-Ray Players play Blu-Rays From Encore made at 23.98?
on Feb 28, 2010 at 2:30:46 pm

This helps immensely, thank you.


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Terry Flaxton
Re: Will PAL Blu-Ray Players play Blu-Rays From Encore made at 23.98?
on Mar 3, 2010 at 12:12:38 pm

I know that this post has been answered - but a question - why not simply make a 60i blu-ray disc?

I have a project that is 50i originated that somehow has to work with American blu-ray. The images began on P2 and therefore were only 965 pixels in the beginning - they were up-rezzed in FCP to 1440, then 50i'd and therefore became 540 lines of resolution by being interlaced- it's all downward. So I wanted to avoid yet another step down to progressive and 23.98.

If I go back to the original file and reset the timeline - what should it be to be the best for blu-ray in the states? 30 fps with in 60i interlace or 23.98 ? And then there's 29.97 and 59.94......

This has to play back via a 1280 x 720 projector (unfortunately) - so should I not even go to 1440/1920?

When doing this stuff in Euro mode I've discovered that if I work at 1440/1920 instead of 1280 the projected picture always looks better....

Can anyone help?

A long term DP - likes 35mm and HD equally - changing with digital media - Began as a commercials editor !


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Daniel Ludwig
Re: Will PAL Blu-Ray Players play Blu-Rays From Encore made at 23.98?
on Mar 3, 2010 at 8:06:16 pm

Hi Terry,
the main reason why you shouldn´t go to 1080i60 is that you need to speed it up arround 120% but if your going down to 1080p24 you just need to slow down arround 4%. That´s the main reason why this is a common workflow in film-business for converting PAL to NTSC/FILM or vice versa.

You´ve been talking about starting on P2-material, so if you´ve shot in 1080i50 on your panasonic camera, the nativ format has 1440x1080pixel.

If you were talking about 960 lines this used to be DVCPROHD 720p50, this is nativ 960x720pixel with anamorph pixels.

So back to your projector: if you say it only have a 720p-resolution there is no (good reason) to go 1920 or interlaced, because it will be de-interlaced again in the projector, and scaled. these scaler wont be good.

better use the real nativ 720p then to scale it up within FCP (it has no good upscal-algorithm, too), better choose Innobits Purifier or Adobe After Effects if you would do this.

cheers

danny


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Terry Flaxton
Re: Will PAL Blu-Ray Players play Blu-Rays From Encore made at 23.98?
on Mar 3, 2010 at 11:31:25 pm

Hi - thanks for that Danny. You said:

"If you were talking about 960 lines this used to be DVCPROHD 720p50, this is native 960x720pixel with anamorph pixels".

I meant that the chip had 965 pixels - so 1920 is twice the upscale and in my naivety I'm imagining that data multiplied or divided by whole numbers, or fractions that are not too radically different (halves, quarters, thirds etc) will produce a new set of data that's 'truer' to the original.

On the projector I've discovered through testing that I definitely get greater detail from 1920 out of a 1280 projector than 1280 (given that the data from the original 965 pixel chip requires a multiple of around 1.25 to upscale - rather than the whole number).

Anyway - take all of that with a large pinch of salt because I'm probably making things up.

So what's the frame rate to go for in the end 23.98 or 29.97 given the greater amount of data to generate for 29.97 and the data to lose for 23.98?

For us over in 50 cycle land it's a lot less pain - we don't get the choice (except if we mess around with going down to 24fps - then we just buy the slowdown as a poetic addition)

A long term DP - likes 35mm and HD equally - changing with digital media - Began as a commercials editor !


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Daniel Ludwig
Re: Will PAL Blu-Ray Players play Blu-Rays From Encore made at 23.98?
on Mar 4, 2010 at 4:30:26 am

Hi again,
now I got it - you were talking about the CCD-chip itself. Yes that´s true , they have 965lines and they are using a pixel-shift internally, so the final resolution is 1080i50 with 1440x1080 pixels, of course.

THIS main principle is no upscaling, because they double the pixels by shifting the lines up/down while the content will be read out on the CCD. Of course you´ll have a better detail if your working with a 1920x1080 CCD-cam, but THIS is always a matter of money.

I bought a small canon HF-100 arround one year ago - it´s a consumer 1 chip-AVCHD-cam, but it´s got a real 1920x1080-chip, that´s creating a nice picture - but you better do not compare it with a professional or semi-pro cam, that shot on 1920 or 1440 pixel like sony Z1/EX1 or panasonic HVX-100/200. I was thinking about buying a better cam, but I´m no cam-operator, I´m an editor/author, so I finally decided to buy this small cam for my family-pictures ;)

If you discovered that your projector is doing a better picture if your input is 1080 that makes sence buy the way, because your native material IS 1080, that only needs to be deinterlaced.

So in my opinion the best way to go is 1080p23.98, so you will not get into deinterlaceing-trouble while playing your 1080i50 on your 1280p-projector. mostly their deinterlacing is really poor.

The speedup that you need to do to go 29.98fps is far to much! It wont sound and look naturely, so better slow down a bit - as I described in my last posting - this so called conforming is a common process for film/video-tranfer from PAL to NTSC/Film and vice versa. It´s been used for ALL films that has been shot on 23.98 and needs to be 25fps for broadcast or DVD in all 25fps-lands.

So I wouldn´t mind.

cu

danny


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eric pautsch
Re: Will PAL Blu-Ray Players play Blu-Rays From Encore made at 23.98?
on Mar 6, 2010 at 8:23:04 am

If the OP intentions were to have a disc that plays anywhere, I'd go 60i. If just in Europe, I'd go 50i. de-interlacing is definitely a step in the wrong direction.



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Terry Flaxton
Re: Will PAL Blu-Ray Players play Blu-Rays From Encore made at 23.98?
on Mar 8, 2010 at 6:11:02 pm

Thanks guys for the time and the thinking - I appreciate it

A long term DP - likes 35mm and HD equally - changing with digital media - Began as a commercials editor !


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