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Tom Torrillo
Blu-ray playback issues
on Jan 7, 2010 at 2:23:36 pm

Hey all,

I finished authoring my first Blu-ray through Encore CS4 but it will not playback in either a PS3 or set top Sony Blu-ray player (both are up-to-date).

The Blu-ray has four menus and about 14 timelines and clocks in at around 18GB.

I had no build errors and built to a disk image, then burned via BlueStreak Burner.

All the files are on the disc and the PS3 recognizes the disc as BD-R / BDMV but when I select it from the XMB I see the play icon in the lower right on a black screen and it just stays there.

On the set top, the player recognizes the disc as BDMV then goes to a black screen and just stays there as well and on the front of the unit the play and pause icons are lit.

Am I missing something in the authoring process? Is there anything I should check?

What sort of "burnflow" have people successfully used in OS X? I know from searching these forums that people have had issues burning directly from Encore so I built a disc image instead.

Has anyone had success mounting the disc and burning it from Disk Utility? How about through Toast Titanium 10?

I'm going to pick up a BD-RE to avoid making any more coasters.


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Larry Applegate
Re: Blu-ray playback issues
on Jan 7, 2010 at 6:22:41 pm

Hi Tom,

What BD-R media are you using? Verbatim have been absolutely reliable for me.

Use BluStreak Burner or Toast to burn directly, instead of relying on Encore's disc image. In Encore, choose Build Blu-ray Folder. Then open that folder in BluStreak and choose Burn Disc Image.

Disk Utility is not able to create Blu-ray or DVD disc directories.

Regards,

Larry Applegate
http://blustreak.dvdafteredit.com/


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Tom Torrillo
Re: Blu-ray playback issues
on Jan 7, 2010 at 6:32:18 pm

Hey Larry,

I used a Verbatim BD-R.

So instead of a disc image (.iso) you're saying build to a folder instead and then select that folder with BlueStreak or Toast (selecting the BDMV option under "Video")?

I had thought that if you mount the disk image and then open disk utility it could then just select the BD drive from the burn menu and it would just copy it.

Also, do you know what the limitations are for the title of a Blu-ray? I know for a DVD it's something like 16 characters but I couldn't find anything on the Blu-ray spec and I assume that it's different. I also assume that this would be the title that would display when, let's say, you select the disc on the PS3?

Thanks!
Tom


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Larry Applegate
Re: Blu-ray playback issues
on Jan 7, 2010 at 10:28:08 pm

Hi Tom,

The question is did Encore build a correct UDF 2.5 directory for the disc? There is another thread on this forum where the poster says it did not. Whereas BluStreak and Toast always work correctly. But if you use either to open an existing bad image, it will just copy what is already there.

The advantage of using BluStreak for burning is that it is not also an authoring application, whereas the Toast interface is more complicated, and they keep changing it.

The other possibility is that Encore did not transcode your assets correctly. It is a very flaky program. Also the US PS3 does not play 50 Hz material, though most European players, including PS3, will play everything. So there are a lot of possible failure points.

The title (folder) name of a Blu-ray disc does not show up in the player, it is not important. For example, the titles for the two Wall-E discs are "QUACK_1" and "QUACK_2", which may have been a joke by Disney's subcontractor, and nobody noticed and millions of copies were replicated. The only time you will see the disc name is in the Finder or Windows Explorer. I just use whatever names I want, and have never had that be an issue with the players. BluStreak Premaster will force all premaster fields to be spec-compliant.


Regards,

Larry Applegate
http://blustreak.dvdafteredit.com/


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Tom Torrillo
Re: Blu-ray playback issues
on Jan 8, 2010 at 1:06:03 am

Larry,

It seems the problem was using a disk image. I built to a folder then burned one with BlueStreak and one with Toast and they both played flawlessly in both my PS3 and set top player.

I also didn't have any menu problems like I've read many others have had and I have four menus linking back and forth to each other and different timelines.

Also had my assets set to "Don't Transcode" as I had them properly encoded out of Premiere.

Regarding the folder name, I had thought what you title the disc would be the, er, title for lack of a better term. Like when you put a disc in a PS3 and browse to it on the XMB it says "Wall-E" whereas if I load up my authored Blu-ray it just says "BDMV BD-R".

Am I correct in assuming that having a custom title show up there is something I would need a more professional level authoring tool for?

Thanks for the folder tip, worked like a charm. First Blu-ray successfully authored.

Tom


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Larry Applegate
Re: Blu-ray playback issues
on Jan 8, 2010 at 6:43:03 pm

Hi Tom,

Thanks for the complete report. I agree that it is always a good idea to encode your assets outside of the authoring application, that is what most experienced authors always do.

As for menu navigation errors, my impression is that they occur when trying to use overrides, playlists, or other of the more complex functions. Basically, the Blu-ray implementation is unfinished, to say it kindly. And the kind of "niceties" that you can do in DVD Studio Pro, such as help the viewer along by choosing a menu button based on the path he or she has taken through the navigation, is impossible even for DVD, because there is no scripting or "if this, do that" concept.

But for straightforward navigation and ease of menu creation it can be a very effective tool, the integration with Photoshop is much better than DVD Studio Pro.

I am not a PS3 expert, what is the XMB? All of my burned BD's, from any authoring package including Scenarist, always show the media type and not any disc name. I'm at home and don't have any commercial Blu-ray replicated discs at the moment, but my commercial DVD's just start playing without showing anything, and if I remember correctly that's what happened with BD's as well.



Regards,

Larry Applegate
http://blustreak.dvdafteredit.com/


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Tom Torrillo
Re: Blu-ray playback issues
on Jan 8, 2010 at 6:57:53 pm

Larry,

The XMB is the "Cross Media Bar", the menu navigation system on the PS3. If you set your PS3 to not automatically boot whatever CD/DVD/BD you put in, you can navigate to the video "tab" and in the case of a Blu-ray, it shows a little thumbnail and the movie's name.

For DVDs it just shows "DVD" and for burned Blu-rays, it shows "BDMV BD-R". I guess getting that custom thumbnail and description is something for more professional authoring.

My mistake in assuming you knew about the XMB.

Another weird issue I've been encountering involves creating timelines. If I add all my assets to one timeline (which is what I really want to do), the size of my disc goes from 18GB to 28GB for some reason. If I break it up into separate timelines, it remains at 18GB.

Have you ever heard of this? I think it's a bug.

I'd like to keep everything on one timeline that way the viewer can use the previous button to go backwards but while you can specify an end action for a timeline, you can't specify a previous action. If the user presses previous at the beginning of a timeline they just get a "Operation cannot be performed here" or something like that.

I've tried a bunch of things but now I'm going to re-encode with MPEG2 instead of H.264 and see if that is the reason for the mystery 10GB that show up when I put all my assets on one timeline.

I figure I won't lose anything using MPEG2 since I'm using a CBR of 16Mbps anyways.

Thanks,
Tom


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Larry Applegate
Re: Blu-ray playback issues
on Jan 8, 2010 at 7:50:51 pm

Tom,

Thanks for the name of XMB and the hint to turn off automatic play. I will bring home a Hollywood BD and one of ours replicated from Encore and see if I can figure out what it takes to display the name and the thumbnail. But I suspect it will only work for replicated discs, not burned. The dichotomy between replicated and burned is very strict in Blu-ray. I do have a replicated European disc from Encore and it showed "BD-ROM" instead of "BD-R" or "BD-RE". But it is 1080i50 and won't play on a US PS3.

For your timeline problem, I very much doubt it has to do with which encoder you used. H264 is just better than MPEG2. If you do a new Job in BluStreak Burner and open the build folder you can see all of the files and their sizes. Encore has a habit of creating very short dummy tracks for their navigation purposes, but they wouldn't be 10 GB worth. Do you have a long motion menu with a loop point? We have unreleased tools that can figure out what is going on if you were to send me your build. (We are working on our own authoring application).

It would seem your simpler solution would be to concatenate your original assets in Premiere before encoding. That is the normal way to make long continuous tracks, rather than (again) trusting the DVD or BD authoring program to do it properly. It is also usually easier to designate the chapter points in the NLE, and make sure that the encoding honors them so that chapters always start with a full frame.

If you would like to discuss these things in more detail, you can drop me a personal email at larry at dvdafteredit dot com.


Regards,

Larry Applegate
http://blustreak.dvdafteredit.com/


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Tom Torrillo
Re: Blu-ray playback issues
on Jan 8, 2010 at 8:18:42 pm

>> Do you have a long motion menu with a loop point?

No motion menus, just four still menus.

I think I'll just concatenate in Premiere and encode out, that seems like the easiest solution as it sounds more and more like the extra 10GB is a bug.

As far as H.264 vs. MPEG2, I know that H.264 delivers a higher quality at a lower bitrate but the trade-off is encoding time. Now, the footage I'm encoding is AVCHD at 16Mbps so there's really no point in encoding it higher than 16Mbps correct?

I guess what I mean is that MPEG2 CBR 16Mbps is pretty much the same as H.264 CBR 16Mpbs if space isn't an issue right?

Thanks again for helping me out with these questions, you've been en enormous help =)

Tom


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Larry Applegate
Re: Blu-ray playback issues
on Jan 8, 2010 at 8:51:21 pm

Tom,

AVCHD is essentially H264 minus some of the bells and whistles. So it seems counter-intuitive to switch it to MPEG-2, I think you may lose quality, but I've never tried it. I see no big advantage to using a higher bit rate than the original video. But this is just opinion on what seems logical to me.

I have a Canon HF10 AVCHD camera, and it produces outstanding results. (If the lighting is good and I use a tripod). I use Final Cut and Compressor mostly. But I also ran a local TV show's Final Cut export through the Adobe H264 encoder using a higher bit rate, and also got outstanding results, the director couldn't see any real difference from the original video, which was shot on higher-end AVCHD cameras. I didn't try a lower bit rate, since it was only a 30-minute show.

Larry


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Tom Torrillo
Re: Blu-ray playback issues
on Jan 11, 2010 at 2:37:25 pm

Interesting.

I would think that if you're using a CBR, 16Mbps is 16Mbps whether it's encoded using H.264 or MPEG2 but if you say that H.264 is better in that case regardless, then of course I will go with H.264.

And I agree, encoding at a higher bitrate than what the source's max is sounds like a waste of space.


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David Speace
Re: Blu-ray playback issues
on Feb 4, 2010 at 3:13:11 pm

I have the same problem. I created a bluray disc directly from CS3 to encore... no menus. The disc does not play when put in a computer... haven't tried a bluray player yet. Probably won't work. You mention using BlueStreak? What is BlueStreak and where can I get it?

Dave Speace
Producer/Director/DP
DZP Video


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Tom Torrillo
Re: Blu-ray playback issues
on Feb 4, 2010 at 3:18:04 pm

Are you building straight to a disc or a disc image?

I had problems authoring this way but found that if I build to a folder and then burn the resulting folders (BDMV and CERTIFICATE) to the root of a BD-R via Toast 10 Titanium everything worked just fine.

BluStreak burner can be found here:
http://blustreak.dvdafteredit.com/blustreak-burner

(note I am using CS4, not CS3)


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henk Dawson
Re: Blu-ray playback issues
on Mar 15, 2010 at 5:06:05 pm

I'm using Encore CS4 to export a project folder. The project folder contains a BDMV and a CERTIFICATE folder. I'm getting an Unknown Format error when I try to play the disc.

Hardare
Burner: LG Super Multi Blue burner
Media: Sony BD-RE disc
TV: Insignia with a built-in blue-ray player.


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Larry Applegate
Re: Blu-ray playback issues
on Mar 15, 2010 at 5:59:52 pm

You must burn a UDF 2.5 Blu-ray disc image to play it in the combo TV-Blu-ray player, either with Toast or BluStreak Burner.


Regards,

Larry Applegate
http://blustreak.dvdafteredit.com/


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henk Dawson
Re: Blu-ray playback issues
on Mar 15, 2010 at 6:59:24 pm

I’m still getting an “Unknown Format” error. Here’s what I tried...

Encore CS4 > build Blu-ray Folder
BlueStreak > New Job > Choose folder created in step 1
BlueStreak > Export As Disc Image
BlueStreak > Open Source Disc > Select file made in step 3
BlueStreak > Burn Disc image

Notes: I tried this on DVD-R media and Sony BD-RE media. When I try to play it on a Insignia TV with a built-in Blu-Ray player I get an “Unknown Format” error.


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Larry Applegate
Re: Blu-ray playback issues
on Mar 15, 2010 at 8:19:01 pm

I did a bit of googling on the Insignia devices and didn't get a warm fuzzy feeling. Can you get access to and try a different Blu-ray player? Perhaps even at a Best Buy, with your BD-RE.

Unfortunately many players don't play DVD media unless the content is AVCHD. Even the PS3, which is very annoying. And the PS3 and many US players, including all of Sony's, won't play titles authored to the "PAL" frame rates.

Still seems like Sony, the Blu-ray consortium, and the AACS company is doing everything in their power to discourage independents. But enough of my rant.

It is possible that there is a BluStreak Burner bug in burning from BD images created by other software, and I suppose it could even carry over to our own images, but I've never had a problem with that. You could try burning directly from the BDMV. But I would guess the more likely reason is an Insignia limitation or a bad encode or data corruption or i/o error.


Regards,

Larry Applegate
http://blustreak.dvdafteredit.com/


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Gerald Bergsma
Re: Blu-ray playback issues
on Oct 5, 2011 at 5:42:33 am

Hi Larry or someone else, can you help me. I have doewnloaded Pinnical Studio 15 to edit my high def video from my Canon HFS 20. I have successfully edited and burned 2 BDMV disks and they play well. The 3rd edit burns but will not play on my Blu-ray player.

All files appear to be the same on both disks. Any ideas?


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