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Full BluRay function on DVD blank disk

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John Rich
Full BluRay function on DVD blank disk
on Apr 3, 2008 at 6:00:28 pm

I've been trying to create a functional BluRay menu system to play a short HDV clip recorded by an HV20 camera, that can be burned to a DVD blank disk and played in a PlayStation 3.

So far, using Encore, I've burned a BluRay folder using Encore, and then burned the two BluRay files using Nero as a ROM UDF (setting the UDF to 2.5) to the disk successfully.
This was burned using a Lite-on BluRay burner.
The PlayStation 3 will allow the playing of the movie (select the Stream file in the BDMV folder), but I don't know how to make the menu system work (it just displays as a picture of the menu if I select it).
Is there anyway to make a functional BluRay system that can be burned to a regular DVD disk?
John Rich


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Joe Bowden
Re: Full BluRay function on DVD blank disk
on Apr 3, 2008 at 6:57:44 pm

You've gotten farther with this than I did.

Encore doesn't support burning a Blu-ray project to DVD, so any attempts to do so require trailblazing of exporting a BD folder or image and then burning it with other applications.

Sorry I can't help more.



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Brian Kennell
Re: Full BluRay function on DVD blank disk
on Apr 24, 2008 at 10:00:46 pm

I've never done Blu-ray-project-on-DVD with menu's, but I've created short Blu-ray projects, exported them as ISO images, and burned them to DVD. Use ImgBurn (http://www.imgburn.com) to burn the iso. its a great program.



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John Rich
Re: Full BluRay function on DVD blank disk
on Apr 24, 2008 at 11:15:40 pm

Brian,
I'm not sure what you mean by a BluRay "Project". If you just mean playing a movie clip on Playstation3 or some other BluRay player, then you could do it your way or mine succssfully. What I was hoping for was some way to make an entire BluRay project including menus play on a DVD.

Do you think ImagBurn could do that?
Thanks,
John

JOHNR


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Brian Kennell
Re: Full BluRay function on DVD blank disk
on Apr 25, 2008 at 12:54:38 pm

By "project" I mean a Blu-ray project in Encore. I put a series of timelines (all HD H.264) that were linked in serial fashion to each other. Played correctly in my Blu-ray player.

What I'm suggesting is for you to try exporting your project with menu's as an ISO image and then burn it to a DVD using ImgBurn...





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John Rich
Re: Full BluRay function on DVD blank disk
on Apr 25, 2008 at 6:35:41 pm

I had burned an BluRay .iso image using Encore as well as the BluRay Folder, but couldn't figure out how to burn the image using Nero (I burned a DVD using ROM ISO but it wouldn't play on my PS3).

I looked at the ImgBrn website and couldn't see where there was a BluRay burning module.

I would really appreciate it if you would suggest the exact steps how I could use ImgBrn to do this. Since, I'm not willing to spend the amount it requires to use the BluRay disks, and I really want to put the HDV footage on a disk right now I'm at an impasse.
Thanks, for your help.
John


JOHNR


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cowcowcowcowcow
Brian Kennell
Re: Full BluRay function on DVD blank disk
on Apr 27, 2008 at 4:26:37 am

John,

I did a little test tonight and it worked fine.

I opened a new Blu-ray project in Encore CS3. I then setup my project just how I wanted, motion menu's and all. It was all simple HDV clips strait from the camera, even the motion menu's. When i was satisfied how the menu's (i used an encore preset), buttons and such worked, I exported the project as a Blu-ray Image file (.iso). I then used ImgBurn to burn this ISO image to the DVD. ImgBurn doesn't care what the contents of the image are, so don't worry about writing a blu-ray project onto a DVD, It just cares if the image will fit on the DVD. Make sure it's less than 4.7GB! :o)

The resulting DVD plays just fine in my Sony BDP-S300. The HD footage is the same quality as its Blu-ray counterpart. I've never tried to play blu-ray on a PS3, so that might be a separate issue.

Hope this helps.




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John Rich
Re: Full BluRay function on DVD blank disk
on Apr 27, 2008 at 6:49:47 pm

Brian,

I had already done a BluRay .iso, so I downloaded ImgBurn which was an incredibly easy program to use compared to Nero (kind of a wierd noise at the end).
Then I burned the .iso image to a regular DVD+R which I happened to have around using a regular DVD burner. It showed up on my PS3, but would not play as a DVD with menus.
Then I took the disk down to the local Best Buy who happened to have a Sony BDP S300 player hooked up to an HDV set and the disk played perfectly with the menu active and everything.

It was a very simple menu and as you did, I just used a short clip of HDV from the camera to hook to the button which in my case was an MPEG2 format clip.
Thanks a lot for walking me through that.
I have a couple more questions if you don't mind. 1. I assume you have the BDP S300 hooked up to a HDMI cable into your TV. Is that correct? 2. It looks like the BDP S300 will play all kinds of disks, according to their ads including DVD's and uprezing DVD's. Again, is that your experience? 3. Finally, do you have your BDP hooked up to a digital tuner for the surround sound?
Again, thanks for the tips. I think you should publish this somewhere.
John

JOHNR


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Brian Kennell
Re: Full BluRay function on DVD blank disk
on Apr 28, 2008 at 2:26:47 pm

John,

Yes, I have the S300 hooked up to my HDTV via HDMI.

I know for a fact that it will play DVDs, DVD-Rs, DVD-RWs, BDs, BD-Rs, & BD-REs. I use BD-REs to test projects before I burn a $15 disc! Some players may need a firmware update to play recordable discs. I don't know why the Sony website says it won't play recordable discs.

No, I don't have an AV receiver or digital tuner hooked up to the BDP-S300. I just use the audio that comes thru HDMI.

I'm glad you got it working! Kinda weird how the PS3 doesn't play the Blu-ray content correctly...



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John Rich
Re: Full BluRay function on DVD blank disk
on Apr 28, 2008 at 6:41:16 pm

Brian,

I can't figure out the PS3 thing either. Apparently it has an operating system made from Linux which could be the problem. One of the main "selling points" of the PS3 was that it would be a "BluRay Player". It does play commercial BluRay disks and "uprezes" regular DVD's.

I have not been able to find anybody at SONY to call about this, and their forums apparently aren't interested, so I guess I'll never find out.

One final thing, is I saw you filmed in H.254 and I was wondering if you thought that better than the MPEG2 that I get out of my HV20?
Thanks again,
John

JOHNR


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Brian Kennell
Re: Full BluRay function on DVD blank disk
on Apr 29, 2008 at 12:13:13 am

Yes, definitely. H.264 is a much more efficient codec than MPEG2. You can fit more video on a DVD or Blu-ray without a loss in quality. Takes more to time to encode however.

I would conservatively suggest that an MPEG2 bitrate of 20Mbps is visually equivalent to an H.264 bitrate of 15Mbps. That being said, I always encode my HD content w/ H.264 @ 20Mbps.



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John Rich
Re: Full BluRay function on DVD blank disk
on Apr 29, 2008 at 12:54:33 am

Would you tell me how your work flow goes. I assume you have a camera that captures HDV (some sort of MPEG2). Then how do you edit it and convert the final product before you move it into Encore.
I've been using cineform to capture the HDV and edit, but I export it(an AVI file) and then let Encore automatically encode, but it still winds up as an MPEG2. It sound like it would be better to do it in H.264 to get more onto the DVD.

Thanks,
John

JOHNR


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Heath Firestone
Re: Full BluRay function on DVD blank disk
on Apr 29, 2008 at 1:38:05 am

Hey guys,

Sorry about not chiming in on this a little sooner. I was writing an article about this, which I delayed on releasing, while I waited for a response from Sony regarding this. What you guys are talking about, (burning a Blu-Ray image onto a standard DVD+/-R disc), is called a BD-9. It is supposed to be supported by all Blu-Ray disc players, but last I checked, had not yet been implemented in the latest PS3 firmware release. I contacted Sony several months ago to find out when it would be implemented, but never got a response, despite sending it to the guy I was told was in charge of Blu-Ray implementation at Sony. I imagine if they get enough interest and requests from people, this would become a priority. I first tried this last July, and figured it was only a matter of time before other people realized the usefulness as well.

I'm glad to hear that some Blu-Ray disc players are supporting it. Now we just need to convince Sony to update their PS3 firmware to support it. BTW, originally PS3's didn't support playback of BD-R and BD-RE discs either, but they added the support pretty quickly. I think they just need a little reminder that we have a use for it.

Heath


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Philip Meadows
Re: Full BluRay function on DVD blank disk
on Jun 19, 2008 at 8:54:55 pm

Anyone know if you can do this with a Dual Layer DVD? If so, we could get 8+ GB of data on there for a Blu-ray ISO.



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John Rich
Re: Full BluRay function on DVD blank disk
on Jun 19, 2008 at 10:10:51 pm

Phil,
I don't have a dual layer dvd burner, nor do I know if IMgBurn supports that, but that would be a great experiment for you, if you have the burner.
In the interim, some guys worked out a way to edit the BluRay folder files so I could get a full BluRay project play menus and all on a PlayStation3. I made a brief tutorial about it (at the bottom of the list here) jmrser.com which may be helpful. I never could get the .iso file to play on the PS3, but the edited folder will play on the Sony BSP-S300 as well as the PS3. I'd be interested in what you think.
John

JOHNR


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Philip Meadows
Re: Full BluRay function on DVD blank disk
on Jun 20, 2008 at 7:50:31 am

Thanks John,

I've already tried an ISO to DVD and couldn't get it to work on my player either (Panasonic DMP-BD30K). I will take a look at your tutorial and see if I can get it to work on DVD via the folder method. As far as the Dual layer test goes, I need to generate some bigger files. Most of my videos are a few minutes long right now, as I am creating them in 3DS Max. Stay tuned!



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John Rich
Re: Full BluRay function on DVD blank disk
on Jun 20, 2008 at 12:32:14 pm

In one of the other threads I've read, it was emphasized that it was necessary to update the firmware of the BluRay player to allow the .iso to play. That particularly applied to the BDP-S300 I used at a local Best Buy to check my various attempts.

That might help.
http://www.wrigleyvideo.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=29665
John

JOHNR


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Philip Meadows
Re: Full BluRay function on DVD blank disk
on Jun 20, 2008 at 8:42:24 pm

Okay...I have it working now on a DVD+R using your folder method. Thanks for the tutorial!! I will now work on getting enough footage for a Dual Layer DVD to give that a try. Thanks for your help! :-)



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John Rich
Re: Full BluRay function on DVD blank disk
on Jun 20, 2008 at 11:16:42 pm

I have a feeling that Encore won't burn a dual layer BluRay project
http://www.adobeforums.com/webx/.59b58cdf/0 in which case we're limited to about 20 to 30 minutes of video.

John

JOHNR


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Philip Meadows
Re: Full BluRay function on DVD blank disk
on Jun 21, 2008 at 2:14:10 am

Well, they are refering to a dual layer Blu-ray disc, not a dual layer DVD. I think it might work since it will act like a bigger dvd inside of imageburn. I will keep you posted....still creating and downloading 1920x1080 content. :-)



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John Rich
Re: Full BluRay function on DVD blank disk
on Jun 28, 2008 at 3:05:31 am

Phil,

Any luck burning a dual layer BluRay disk yet?

John

JOHNR


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Philip Meadows
Re: Full BluRay function on DVD blank disk
on Jun 28, 2008 at 10:19:33 pm

I will have time to try it our this next week. Got buried doing some other work lately. I will post my results soon. Stay tuned! :-)



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Philip Meadows
Re: Full BluRay function on DVD blank disk
on Jul 17, 2008 at 2:20:31 pm

Verified!! I finally had time to test this out and it works perfectly on my Panasonic DMP-BD30. I used a Verbatim DVD+R DL 8.5GB disk and put about 6.5GB of HD footage on it. I burned it on a standard DL burner with ImgBurn.



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John Rich
Re: Full BluRay function on DVD blank disk
on Jul 17, 2008 at 3:56:38 pm

It sounds like "you're the man". About what was the duration of the HD footage?

John

JOHNR


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Philip Meadows
Re: Full BluRay function on DVD blank disk
on Jul 17, 2008 at 4:36:35 pm

The data on the footage:

1920x1080 at a length of 69 minutes and 50 seconds.



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Mike Latendresse
Re: Full BluRay function on DVD blank disk
on Nov 16, 2010 at 6:31:36 pm

Brian,
I'm tearing my hair out. CS4 PrPro and Encore and ImgBrn. I've been trying to create an AVCHD DVD disk WITH MENUS using encore and imgbrn. Playback on Panasonic DMP-BD655 (and sometimes a higher end SONY that a friend has. I can ALWAYS successfully burn a PrPro avchd-compliant file to DVD using NERO VISION, but the menus are so amateurish that I'd really rather use my ENCORE menus, but ENCORE always creates the menu *.m2ts file at 40mbs which as I understand it is more than DVD AVCHD can handle (18 mbs limit). Are there special settings (i've tried a lot) in ImgBrn that you use? Looking at the NERO burns that work, I see that there is no CERTIFICATE folder. Nor are there the "odd" JAR, META, BDJO, etc folders. Seems to be straying from the specs, but I tried to mimic this as straight ENCORE builds always have these in them. Still, nothing works. Can't tell you which SONY my friend(S) have...suppose it could be just my three trial players aren't quite so compatible? They do all play the NERO disks, though--just not ENCORE menus.
Is there a tutorial complete with ALL transcode settings, ImgBrn write settings, etc?

THANKS!, THANKS! Mike


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John Rich
Re: Full BluRay function on DVD blank disk
on Nov 16, 2010 at 8:02:25 pm

Mike,

Assuming you want to take some AVCHD footage you captured and put that together with some BLuRay sized menus you created in Photoshop and create a 20 min or less Bluray project on a regular DVD, I would suggest:
Use an AVCHD preset in PremPro CS4 (I've moved on to CS5), and export your timelines as BluRay Mpeg2 in Ad Med ENcoder.
Assemble your project as a BluRay in Encore and burn a BluRay .iso.
Then use Imgburn to burn the .iso to the DVD. (Remember NO chapter points )
This in my experience should play on a BluRay player assuming the firmware of the player is up to date.
I would be interested to hear how it works out.
John Rich

JOHNR


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Brian Kennell
Re: Full BluRay function on DVD blank disk
on Nov 16, 2010 at 8:42:49 pm

That's an interesting situation Mike. I don't remember what my exact settings were.

I would check the "Max Bitrate" setting for your Encore Project (File->Project Settings->Advanced ). I presume that setting a lower max bitrate on that tab would apply to motion menus. Let us know what you get.


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Mike Latendresse
Re: Full BluRay function on DVD blank disk
on Nov 17, 2010 at 4:32:10 am

Thanks JohnR and Brian.

I have been using MAX 15mbs setting on the Encore Project Settings AND ImgBurn to no avail up to this point. HOWEVER, if I use multiAVCHD to "assemble" the burn project after manually deleting the CERTIFICATE and BDMV/META;JAR;AUXDATA;BDJO folders from the ENCORE "folder burn" (CANNOT get the *.iso image to work at all--I'm guessing it is because of the above folders are still in the image file) and then use ImgBurn I can get an AVCHD DVD disk at 18mbs with motion menus and all to play on my set-top BluRay player.

Brian--your workflow is exactly what I've been trying for so long w/o success. Perhaps it's just the players I've been able to use for testing. The two higher-end SONY BD players I have friendly access to have not been kept up to date on firmware. Maybe that's what's preventing an easier process as you describe. I do find it interesting that you mention Chapter points as being a no-no. I've been working on simpler projects just to get something to play and now that I've got that figured out, I'll be attempting Chapters in AVCHD. I know NERO 10 does chapters half-way reliably, but again I don't care for the less-robust menus allowed in Nero. When you say "no chapter points", do you mean ENCORE chapter points set in Premiere Pro or chapters one creates after the fact right in Encore?

Thanks to both of you again for your quick response. Brian-has CS5 NOT gotten any easier in regards to this AVCHD flow?


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Mike Latendresse
Re: Full BluRay function on DVD blank disk
on Nov 17, 2010 at 4:34:20 am

One more thought for now. I still find it very interesting that such an inexpensive program like Nero can deal with AVCHD burnt to DVD disk for use in BluRay players and Encore/PrPro can't.


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