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DDP 2.0 image file on DVD-R versus DLT

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briand4130
DDP 2.0 image file on DVD-R versus DLT
on Feb 8, 2007 at 6:30:21 am

Forgive me, I'm new to this mastering for replication thing... I have a project that I'm about to send out for replication, they requested a DDP 2.0 image, but I can't figure out how to create one from Encore... I don't have a DLT drive either.

So is there anyway to create a DDP 2.0 image on a DVD-R, without DLT?

Oh yeah, I have Encore 1.5.

Thanks,

-BD



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Joe Bowden
Re: DDP 2.0 image file on DVD-R versus DLT
on Feb 8, 2007 at 4:36:01 pm

Encore doesn't export DDP 2.0 images. If you want to master from Encore, you'll need a DLT and some tapes.


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briand4130
Re: DDP 2.0 image file on DVD-R versus DLT
on Feb 8, 2007 at 4:57:34 pm

That's what I was afraid of... thanks.


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SkylineAtlanta
Re: DDP 2.0 image file on DVD-R versus DLT
on Feb 10, 2007 at 10:54:57 pm

I have read somewhere in Adobe's Encore 2.0 forum (maybe in the FAQs) that it IS possible to write a copy protection flagged file set to DVD-ROM (data) to send to a replication house and that DLT is no longer the only way to transport the files... is this not accurate?

Most replication houses only take DLT, but some are now accepting DVD-ROMs. I'm about to try it for the first time using Encore 2.0 (for a DVD5) and am getting a little nervous about this ambiguity.

The rep house asks for settings as:
- CSS
- MacroVision Type 2
- DDP 2.0
- burned as UDF

What would be truly nice would be to find a CURRENT Adobe web page that answers this definitively. Anybody know for sure?

- David


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SkylineAtlanta
Re: DDP 2.0 image file on DVD-R versus DLT
on Feb 10, 2007 at 11:37:31 pm

I found the reference on the Adobe forums which seems to contradict the notion that you cannot place flagged copy protected DVD image files on a DVD-ROM for transporting to a replication house. Here it is:

No DLT Machine? Writing a DL project to 2 DVD-R discs as DDP images

Neil Wilkes - 02:00am Apr 19, 2006 Pacific


There is yet another way to get a DL project to the factory if you do not have a DLT machine, and do not have access to DL discs in the correct format.

Write the DDP images to 2 single layer discs instead!
This requires the use of GEAR Pro Mastering Edition again, and is incredibly easy to do.

What you need to do here is follow the original guides in the FAQ sections for setting the Layer Break manually, but instead of writing the project to DLT tapes or to DVD-R DL/DVD+R DL media, what we do next is write the project to a DDP file on the HDD instead.
This will result in 2 folders appearing - Layer 0 and Layer 1.
Each of these has the necessary information for the replication plant to manufacture the discs - all we need to do is get them onto 2 discs instead of 2 DLT tapes.
This is simplicity itself.

Launch your burning application.
Create a new DVD-ROM project.
Name it (Project)_Layer_1
Broswe to the 2 folders with the DDP files in them, and add the contents in this exact order
DDPID
CONTROL.DAT
IMAGE.DAT
(Checksum.txt - optional)
(Log file - optional)

Burn the disc.
Repeat for Layer 1.
That is all there is to it.

What will happen at the factory is the Eclipse verification system will look for the DDPID file at the root level of the disc. If it cannot find it, it will assume it is dealing with a standard DVD-ROM disc instead, but if it is there it will know what is going on, load the files, and ask for Layer 1 after it has finished in the normal manner.

EDIT.
I have just been informed by a VERY reliable source that you can also write a copy protected image to DVD-R discs in this manner.
So that DLT machine is finally obsolete.


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Jeff Bellune
Re: DDP 2.0 image file on DVD-R versus DLT
on Feb 11, 2007 at 12:09:26 am

The issue for the OP was not that it couldn't be done at all, the issue was that it couldn't be done with Encore.

-Jeff

The Focal Easy Guide to Adobe Encore DVD 2.0


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SkylineAtlanta
Re: DDP 2.0 image file on DVD-R versus DLT
on Feb 11, 2007 at 1:26:45 am

Jeff,

I think the OP's intent was to get it done... period. Like myself, he was trying to figure the process out. There are SO MANY misleading posts and, frankly, vague language by Adobe and others that specifics are called for.

Points of confusion seem to be:

* People misunderstanding the difference between a DVD-Video and a DVD-ROM for replication.

* Even though MANY replication houses now accept DVD-ROMs, Adobe's own documentation states that copy protected replications can only be done from a DLT.

- David


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Joe Bowden
Re: DDP 2.0 image file on DVD-R versus DLT
on Feb 11, 2007 at 3:41:18 pm

[SkylineAtlanta] "...Adobe's own documentation states that copy protected replications can only be done from a DLT."

At the time Encore's documentation was written, that was probably a true and correct statement.



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SkylineAtlanta
Re: DDP 2.0 image file on DVD-R versus DLT
on Feb 11, 2007 at 8:44:28 pm

[Joe Bowden] "At the time Encore's documentation was written, that was probably a true and correct statement."

At the risk of sounding like I'm trying to pick an argument, I would expect that documentation released as recently as Encore 2.0 would be accurate for the time of release. This would be a small detail from Adobe's standpoint, I'm sure. But for those of us whose livelihood relies on meeting deadlines and doing things in a professional manner, it is a crucial distinction.

I believe a responsible thing for Adobe to do would be to place an updated statement of clarification in the knowledgebase and in the FAQ of the user forum.

- David


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Joe Bowden
Re: DDP 2.0 image file on DVD-R versus DLT
on Feb 11, 2007 at 9:50:01 pm

Sorry, I think you're picking nits here...nothing personal.

The number of replicaters that will accept DDP images today on DVD ROM is still smaller than those demanding it be deliverrd on DLT. Sixteen months ago or so when Encore 2.0 was released, that number was certainly even smaller, if there were any at all.


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SkylineAtlanta
Re: DDP 2.0 image file on DVD-R versus DLT
on Feb 11, 2007 at 11:06:28 pm

[Joe Bowden] "Sorry, I think you're picking nits here...nothing personal."

That's okay... You're entitled to your opinion... even if it is wrong. }8^)

Seriously, if "nits" affect my payroll, I'm gonna be pickin' 'em! The release of Encore 2.0 was about this time last year. Adobe's website is able to be as current as now. Here's my reality: My client's replicator of preference accepts DVD-ROMs. I have a project due to him by Tuesday. My decision-making process to keep my client happy is:

A) Should I investigate whether my old DLT drive is compatible with the current version of Encore? If so, I could take the time to install it, learn a new way of mastering to an old technology, overnight the tapes and see if it played out just right.
- OR -
B) Should I investigate the seemingly conflicting statements in the manual to determine whether DLT really is the ONLY way to send a copy protected master to the replication house?

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask a company whose very existence is owed to communications to communicate clearly and in a way relevant to its current users.

- David


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Jeff Bellune
Re: DDP 2.0 image file on DVD-R versus DLT
on Feb 11, 2007 at 11:22:31 pm

David,

You cannot make a DDP 2.0 image on DVD-R for a mastering house using *only* Encore. As far as Encore is concerned (in its documentation and on Adobe's web site), your only option is DLT. That is as true today as when Encore was released.

To do what you are proposing to do (write a DDP 2.0 image to DVD-R) requires an additional $400 software package and an additional freeware package.

Although a road map exists to get a DDP image whose content is a project authored with Encore on to a DVD-R, the map has significant financial and technological obstacles that go along for the ride.

In your case, I respectfully recommend that you make a decision. Now. Buy GEAR Pro Mastering Edition or don't. Figure out where to get and how to use IFOEdit or don't. Try your old DLT or don't. Buy a new DLT or don't. Do what you have to do to make your deadline. Arguing semantics over whether a poster or an application's documentation meant "is it possible at all?" or "is it possible using just Encore?" is a pointless waste of time for you now. Save it for the water cooler after the project is out the door.

-Jeff

The Focal Easy Guide to Adobe Encore DVD 2.0


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SkylineAtlanta
Re: DDP 2.0 image file on DVD-R versus DLT
on Feb 12, 2007 at 12:21:43 am

First, if my last post sounded a little defensive, I apologize.

Second, my reading (rightly or wrongly) was that the GPME software was required for mastering across two separate disks to transport a dual layer project to a replicator without DLT. If it is required for a SINGLE layer project as well, then that certainly changes the facts for the decision-making.

Third, does anyone here have first-hand experience with the process for a single layer project?

Fourth, I pick nits here for the reasons stated in my prior post AND because I have been unable to get a definitive answer from Adobe. I was hoping to learn from the experience of others here. If you, Jeff and Joe, speak from first-hand experience and are not simply re-stating what's in the manual, then I will graciously accept that and move on in appreciation.

Jeff, I don't appreciate the personal attack tone of your post. I read my own repost of Neil Wilkes' post to get that info... your post was simply to say "shaddap already!" Frankly, there are charlatans in any forum that are more than willing to spend others' time and money for the sake of their own edification. I don't know you. I don't know Joe, either. Joe may be a fine guy who didn't understand why I was "splitting hairs" or "picking nits". I explained it to him. I don't care whether the process is Encore *only* or Encore + a utility or Encore + shareware or what... just whether a process exists to get it done. If my posts in true pursuit of clarifications annoy you, don't read the thread. By the way, my time spent here is done while other processes are ongoing... thanks for your concern, though.

To avoid further deterioration of a well-intended discussion, I'll refrain from reposting unless I find additional information which may be helpful.


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Joe Bowden
Re: DDP 2.0 image file on DVD-R versus DLT
on Feb 12, 2007 at 12:32:57 am

There is simply no way to do this from Encore 2.0 alone, either single or dual-layer...Encore does not create DDP images.

If you would like to see this feature added to a future release of Encore, then please file a feature request. However, singling out Adob e as a company for not explaining DDP images in either their documentation or web pages for a feature that Encore doesn't offer seems a bit shall we say, counter-intuitive and wasteful to me.

As Jeff advised, if you want to create DDP images for replication, get Gear Mastering Pro. If you want to master for replication using only Encore, get a DLT drive and tapes. There's not much else that can be added to the conversation.


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Jeff Bellune
Re: DDP 2.0 image file on DVD-R versus DLT
on Feb 12, 2007 at 2:40:48 am

David,

I'm sorry for offending you. I did not mean for you to interpret my post as a personal attack.

From where I sit, the links you posted and the information you quoted in your earlier posts give you more than enough information to make a decision on what needs to be done, whether you choose the DVD-R route or the DLT route.

However, my familiarity with Encore and these forums, and my knowledge of the individuals involved who have given you information directly here and indirectly from other sources perhaps prevented me from seeing that the path that seems so clear and cut-and-dried to me, may not be clear or complete in any way to someone searching for the best way to get the job done.

Neil Wilkes has been around, through, over and under the subject of creating DDP images for mastering houses. He knows his stuff very well.

Joe Bowden has been around Encore for a long time. I don't know anyone who is more familiar with the ins and outs of the program, and how it has changed through its revisions, than he. You'd probably have to talk to the guys at Adobe who actually wrote the code to find someone who knows more about Encore than Joe does.

Anyway, I hope you've ended up with enough information to get you going in the right direction. If you only use Encore, then DLT is what you'll need to create a master. If you employ additional tools, a DVD-R master is possible.

-Jeff

The Focal Easy Guide to Adobe Encore DVD 2.0


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Joe Bowden
Re: DDP 2.0 image file on DVD-R versus DLT
on Feb 13, 2007 at 11:12:25 pm

Boy, it sure would be nice to find out how this all ended up, David/SkylineAtlanta (for those readers that don't also frequent the Adobe Encore U2U forum).

Please do tell...


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SkylineAtlanta
Re: DDP 2.0 image file on DVD-R versus DLT
on Feb 13, 2007 at 11:47:32 pm

It's still a little too soon to tell the conclusion... I should hear the results of the validation from the replication house sometime tomorrow. Stay tuned.


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SkylineAtlanta
Re: DDP 2.0 image file on DVD-R versus DLT
on Mar 3, 2007 at 7:19:45 pm

Finally, a wrap-up after the investigation...

The widely-offered answers of "you MUST output to DLT tape" or "you MUST buy the $400 software to do it via disc" are partially correct. DLT had been the only method for many years now. But CSS flagged projects CAN be put onto a DVD-R rather than DLT and it can be done without purchasing the $400 software. Some other software options are available, but the one most widely recognized as consistently effective IS Gear Pro Mastering Edition (GPME). Gear Software (http://www.gearsoftware.com) offers a 30-day fully functional trial version. It has a rather steep learning curve, but can be very powerful in exchange. If you expect to produce more than one or two CSS-flagged or Macrovision-flagged projects, the investment is probably a good one. In my case, only a single project had to be produced with the flags, so the FREE download worked great.

If you opt for the trial software, here's how to move a project mastered in Encore 2.0 through GPME to send a DDP 2.0 image file to a replicator:

(The process requires one step in Encore and two steps in Gear...)

* Output your project to a folder from Encore with all copy protection off.

- Open Gear Pro Mastering Edition.

* Create a new DVD-Video project.
- Check box for "Use CSS encryption"
- Import the Encore-created TS_Video folder contents
- Select "Convert Gear Project to DDP Image" from Mastering menu
- Select the DVD Mastering tab
- Check box for "Write tape in DDP format"
- Check box for "Create Control.dat file with 2054 bytes..."
- Select "SSCRST 3 (2054), DDP 2.0"
- Select the Customer tab and fill in info as you wish
- Verify directory and file name, select OK to convert

* Create a new DVD-ROM project (pure UDF)
- Navigate to DDP image folder using the folders in the upper left corner.
- Drag the image files (Control.dat, DDPID, Image.dat, etc.) down to the frame below it
- From the Project menu, select "Write Gear Project" to burn it to a blank disc

Your replicator may have different requirements, so it is a good idea to ask about their requirements first. Good luck!

- David


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Joe Bowden
Re: DDP 2.0 image file on DVD-R versus DLT
on Mar 8, 2007 at 4:39:13 am

Thanks for posting the detailed wrap up, David.

However, there's one small correction to your post that is worth making: If you are using Encore alone for DVD mastering, you MUST master to DLT. That's as true now after your write up as it was before. That's what I was saying previously, and what Jeff was saying as well.

What's only partially true is you need GearPro to do this... although that would seem to be the wisest choice, especially if you're paying for replication.


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Arthur Klein
Re: DDP 2.0 image file on DVD-R versus DLT
on Apr 1, 2008 at 12:23:04 am

have there been any changes since encore cs3? I there a way to get a ddp file out of encore with CSS enabled?



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Joe Bowden
Re: DDP 2.0 image file on DVD-R versus DLT
on Apr 1, 2008 at 1:18:51 pm

No, sorry.



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Arthur Klein
Re: DDP 2.0 image file on DVD-R versus DLT
on Apr 1, 2008 at 2:39:35 pm

I know Studio Pro can allow a DDP to be output to a DVD-R. When will Adobe off the same (encore cs3 is not inexpensive. Now i have to go to a consultant to create a DLT so i can use CSS copy protection.

Anyone from adobe comment on whether the feature or fix of creating a DDP output to DVD-R.

Also while i am at it like in compressor on mac can we bring a 5.1 track made of 48k 24 bit wave file to a .ac3 encoded?



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Joe Bowden
Re: DDP 2.0 image file on DVD-R versus DLT
on Apr 1, 2008 at 4:31:38 pm

Adobe doesn't publicly comment on potential new features for their products.

Your best bet to communicate your desired new features is to file a feature request on their website.



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oscarin
Re: DDP 2.0 image file on DVD-R versus DLT
on Feb 14, 2007 at 3:34:16 am

If you want your DVD replica to be CSS encrypted, then you do need to send a DLT tape flagged for encryption. If you dont want encryption on your DVD replica, just send a DVD-R (no DVD+R). What ever DVD-R video you put on a DVD player, that same DVD-R can be used for replication.

In a Mastering facility, the DLT or DVD-R you send is put on a Encoder which is interfaced to a LBR (Laser Beam Recorder). The encoder will read your media, analyze, convert it to DDP format (Disk Description Protocol, and dump it into a HDD. The encoder will then send an EFM signal to the LBR, and make a glass master.

Encoders:
http://www.eclipsedata.com/products/ie.htm
http://www.dcainc.com/products/mis/MIS_V8/index.html

LBR:
http://www.optical-disc.com/prod_odc_laserwaveII.htm
http://www.optical-disc.com/prod_nimbus_masteringsystems.htm

If you need to know more about CD replication
http://www.breckrowell.com/cd101/



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