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HELP!! Horizontal Banding on moving objects

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AlanEHoward
HELP!! Horizontal Banding on moving objects
on Oct 5, 2006 at 8:31:25 am

Hi...
I'm having real issues with horizontal banding in Encore projects...it only affects any horizontal movement within the shot ...the footage (which comes from AVID via Procoder) seems to be going in fine... My guess is that it has to be a field order issue as if I take a freeze of a "wobbly" frame out of Encore and import into photoshop then the initial image I see isn't "wobbly" .. (you can see lots of horizontal "tears" tho).. if I then use Filter / video / deinterlace I get the "wobbly" image back... If it will help anyone diagnose this send your e mail address to algy40@hotmail.com and I'll happily send you the freeze frames!
I shoot mainly on a PD150 or Z1 and Sony have told me I should set everything to lower field first. I generally output from AVID as a QT Ref ... put that through Procoder which will give me an m2v file.... when I watch the footage on my computer monitor up to this point then it looks fine..... I then import the m2v file into Encore as a timeline and when I watch that on the encore monitor I get the banding ..... I've tried letting Encore do the encoding but the same thing happens .. it's driving me absolutely mad and I know it's probably a simple thing .... if anyone could help I'd be very very grateful!
Alan


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Jeff Bellune
Re: HELP!! Horizontal Banding on moving objects
on Oct 5, 2006 at 1:49:15 pm

First, let me say that an AVID --> ProCoder workflow is not very "Encore-friendly". There are issues and associated workarounds, but life is harder than it has to be.

Secondly, though, I may have some good news for you. Rather than base your decision on what you see in the Encore preview, burn an RW disc (no coasters) and test the DVD on a hardware DVD player and an interlaced television. For now, keep everything lower field first. You should get silky-smooth motion with no artifacts. If the TV test doesn't work, then you can investigate other solutions.

-Jeff

The Focal Easy Guide to Adobe Encore DVD 2.0


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AlanEHoward
Re: HELP!! Horizontal Banding on moving objects
on Oct 5, 2006 at 2:56:23 pm

Thanks for that Jeff but it's still there on my TV screen! It's really quite bad and any camera movement looks terrible ...... I shoot handheld a lot so it's a real problem.... Your book looks interesting... What would you say the best route out of Avid is ?


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geo
Re: HELP!! Horizontal Banding on moving objects
by
on Oct 5, 2006 at 3:05:25 pm

Alan,

QT Ref is the best way. What are your QT Ref settings? Also, are you doing NTSC or PAL? And what are your Procoder settings?

George


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Jeff Bellune
Re: HELP!! Horizontal Banding on moving objects
on Oct 5, 2006 at 6:05:09 pm

George is on the right track. All of what he asked about would be helpful info. Also good would be what version of Encore you are using.

-Jeff

The Focal Easy Guide to Adobe Encore DVD 2.0


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AlanEHoward
Re: HELP!! Horizontal Banding on moving objects
on Oct 5, 2006 at 6:44:09 pm

Version is 2.0


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AlanEHoward
Re: HELP!! Horizontal Banding on moving objects
on Oct 5, 2006 at 6:43:07 pm

Thanks George ..
Its a PAL project and not many real choices in QT Ref.. I realise that most of this stuff is irrelevant but I'll put it all in anyway! here goes

QT ref settings

Use marks - yes
Use enabled tracks - yes
Default- Digital Mastering
Flatten tracks - yes
Fill spaces - yes
render all video effects - yes
mixdown audio tracks - yes
width + Height - 720 x 540 (4 x 3 square pixel)
Use Network Media References - unticked
Use Avid DV Codec - ticked

Now procoder ...

Setting with Procoder ... some seem irelevant but I'll include anyway ...
Source:
Track Mode - Use all video/flash/text tracks
Video Frame Size - 720 x 540
Frame Rate - 25.00
Video Codec - Avid DV
Interlacing - Lower/bottom first
Aspect Ratio Video[4:3],Pixel[1:1]
Audio - (not relevant!)

Target:
I load a Target Preset using Catagory DVD/ MPEG 2 - DVD PAL(Mastering Quality), (that gives me setting of ...MPEG 2, DVD, 720 x 576, 25.00fps, 6 Mbps, PAL, MPEG Video, Stream + Wave filter for DVD authoring software)

I then apply a preset that a friend put in for me .. those details follow...

Target file splitting
Choose Spliting method - No Splitting

Stream Basic
Stream Format - DVD [MPEG program / Elementary stream]
Stream Type - Mpeg 2 Elementary Stream

Video Basic
Video Standard - PAL 720 x 576
Interlacing - Lower/Bottom first
Aspect Ratio Code - 4 x 3
Quality / Speed - Highest Quality

Video Bitrate Control
Bitrate type - CBR
Video Bitrate - 6500

Video Advanced
Put Sequence Header on each GOP - ticked
VBV Buffer Size (kb) - 224
Max GOP size - 15
GOP Structure - Automatic
Picture Substructure - Always frame
Use Closed GOP - unticked
Chroma Format - greyed out
Intra DC Precision - 10
Use Strict GOP Bitrate Control - ticked
Create DVD compatible stream - ticked

Audio - (notrelevant)

Interestingly enough I've exported a short piece of video and encoded it as I wrote these settings down ....and now that footage is giving strong horizontal bars any time there's movement ... before the footage goes anywhere near Encore... looks like I owe encore an apology! (That's just on my computer screen tho' .. I'll put through encore and watch on a TV!)

How do those setting look to you?

Thanks for your time and effort!

Alan


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Jeff Bellune
Re: HELP!! Horizontal Banding on moving objects
on Oct 5, 2006 at 7:05:09 pm

Hi Alan,

First, I have to say that I don't have any experience mixing SD DVCam/DV material with HDV material in the same project. If I were to try that, I would start with the lowest common denominator and create a project that was 720x576 with a PAR of 1.067. Then I would scale the HDV footage to match. My export settings would be DV PAL at the same frame size and PAR. Especially in light of the fact that the end product is to be a PAL DVD, which also has the same frame size and PAR. Interlacing would be set to LFF.

According to the settings you listed, you chose not to do that. If those export settings work best for you, then I give the nod to your experience.

Some individual points:

1. Under Video Basic, you have aspect ratio code set to 4x3. Does that include a PAR of 1.067? It should.
2. For maximum compatibility with Encore, under Video Advanced you should have Picture substructure set to Field instead of Frame.
3. Also to have Procoder play nice with Encore, under Video Advanced again, you should tick Use Closed GOP.

Back to you,
-Jeff


The Focal Easy Guide to Adobe Encore DVD 2.0


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Jeff Bellune
Re: HELP!! Horizontal Banding on moving objects
on Oct 5, 2006 at 7:07:35 pm

PS - As an afterthought, is the Z1 footage the only footage giving you trouble? Or does the PD150 footage do the same thing?

The Focal Easy Guide to Adobe Encore DVD 2.0


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Vincent Becquiot
Re: HELP!! Horizontal Banding on moving objects
on Oct 5, 2006 at 8:30:38 pm

All that sure still sounds like an field order issue. Make you your HDV is set to upper field.

Vince



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AlanEHoward
Re: HELP!! Horizontal Banding on moving objects
on Oct 5, 2006 at 9:47:53 pm

I think I've thrown you all of the scent as the Z1 (as lovely as it is) has only been used as DVcam so far ..... and this particular problem has only come up with PD 150 footage ... having sat down and made a note of all of the settings I then tried outputting with picture substructure set to "Always Field".... that seems to gave done the trick (setting it to "Automatic" gave me big blocky dropouts that covered half of the screen)... I'm still very interested to know what you guys would use as your standard settings as I'm still not convinced I'm getting as good a result as I should ......

Alan


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geo
Re: HELP!! Horizontal Banding on moving objects
by
on Oct 5, 2006 at 9:39:35 pm

I'm not too familiar with the PAL world, but with NTSC I have found that it is important to specify "Native Dimensions" for the Display Aspect Ratio in the QT Ref setup, not square pixel. This should give you frames of 720x576. Then make sure you set up ProCoder to expect the same thing. I bet this is what's giving you the "wobbly" look.

NTSC field order for DV is lower field first. Isn't PAL field order upper field first for DV? If you get the field order wrong you will get those horizontal "tears" you were talking about.

George



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AlanEHoward
Re: HELP!! Horizontal Banding on moving objects
on Oct 6, 2006 at 8:49:13 am

I'll change those dimensions .... Re Field Order, it's lower first according to Sony Tech help ...

Cheers
Alan


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