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Fade outs cutting off

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eriness
Fade outs cutting off
on Jul 17, 2006 at 10:41:13 pm

I have 15 frame fade-outs rendered into each of my three videos on my DVD.
I have the menu set up so one can navigate to and play each separately, or play a timeline with all three videos in it.
The problem I'm having is that when each video is played by itself, those fade-outs at the end are cut off (for EVERY video). The "play all" section cuts off the very last videos fade-out but the other two are fine.

Does anyone know why this is happening? Or how I can fix it?

I've searched he archives to no avail.
Thanks!



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Joe Bowden
Re: Fade outs cutting off
on Jul 18, 2006 at 2:42:21 pm

Are you using Encore 2.0?


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eriness
Re: Fade outs cutting off
on Jul 18, 2006 at 2:45:33 pm

yes, sorry- I should've mentioned.



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Joe Bowden
Re: Fade outs cutting off
on Jul 18, 2006 at 3:15:16 pm

You're positive you're using Encore 2.0?

The reason I ask is that there was a well-known problem that sounds very much like what you described as your problem in earlier versions of Encore. It was fixed in Encore 2.0, though. Can you tell me more about the video file? What format is it, codec used, frame size, frame rate, and application it was created in?


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eriness
Re: Fade outs cutting off
on Jul 18, 2006 at 3:53:57 pm

The files are mpeg-2 output from Sorenson Squeeze.
720x480, NTSC, Lower field first, 29.97 fps.
I originally rendered them (with the fade-outs built in) from After Effects as .avi Then my editor brought them into Avid and output quicktime reference files. Then took them into Sorenson. This is the only way we could get files to play back without any stutter on the final burned DVD.

She had previously made a completely different DVD trying every single transcoding option in Encore 2.0 with none of them looking decent on the final DVD. Then she searched online for a solution and got the suggestion about the settings in Squeeze.

If there is a better solution, straight out of AE, I'd love to have that information, to eliminate the extra steps. (But I'm not sure that has to to with the problem I'm currently having with my fade-outs).

Yes, I'm sure I'm using Encore 2.0. And keep in mind the fades only cut off when the DVD is returning to the main menu from a video.

Thanks!



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Joe Bowden
Re: Fade outs cutting off
on Jul 18, 2006 at 4:27:27 pm

What's the duration of the fades which show the problem?

(Not sure if it has anything to do with the problem, but there should be no reason you can't use an AVI from AE or PPro and get good image quality from Encore's encoder)


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eriness
Re: Fade outs cutting off
on Jul 18, 2006 at 4:31:31 pm

15 frames




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Joe Bowden
Re: Fade outs cutting off
on Jul 18, 2006 at 6:54:05 pm

Might be the GOPs in the MPEG file. Are they opened or closed? And what size are they?


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eriness
Re: Fade outs cutting off
on Jul 18, 2006 at 9:32:21 pm

I'm sorry, I'm not sure what they are. There were specifications for that in Sorenson that I saw. Could you please explain?



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Joe Bowden
Re: Fade outs cutting off
on Jul 18, 2006 at 10:12:06 pm

GOPs (Group of Pictures) are data structures used in MPEG video consisting of an I frame, B, & P frames. They can be opened or closed, and in NTSC are usually anywhere from 15 to 18 frames. Does Sorenson allow you to customize these settings, or issue a report after encoding?

As long as the frames are correct, optimally the GOPs should be closed. Can you find out if they were closed or not?


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eriness
Re: Fade outs cutting off
on Jul 18, 2006 at 10:26:11 pm

I mistyped before- I meant to say there were NO settings for GOP that I saw. I just searched the Sorenson help files- no luck. There was a setting for I Frames in Sorenson and that is set to 6 frames, but nothing about open or closed anything.



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Joe Bowden
Re: Fade outs cutting off
on Jul 19, 2006 at 12:27:03 am

6 frames is too few...it should be at least 15.


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eriness
Re: Fade outs cutting off
on Jul 19, 2006 at 1:42:23 am

ok, would that make the ends not cut off anymore?


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Joe Bowden
Re: Fade outs cutting off
on Jul 19, 2006 at 3:03:29 pm

Perhaps. What I can tell you positively is that an I-frame every 6 frames is out of DVD spec and may cause playback issues such as what you are reporting. 15 frames is the minimum for NTSC- 18 frames is the maximum.


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eriness
Re: Fade outs cutting off
on Jul 19, 2006 at 3:24:07 pm

Ok, I'm trying to re-render out of AE directly as Mpeg 2-DVD. in the GOP settings there are N frames and M frames. Right now, by default they are 3 and 15, respectively. Is this correct?



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eriness
Re: Fade outs cutting off
on Jul 19, 2006 at 4:57:37 pm

I just re-rendered everything using these settings out of AE:
format: MPEG2-DVD
format options:
preset:NTSC DV 4x3 High Quality 7Mb CBR 1 Pass
video codec: MainConcept MPEG Video
quality: 5.0
TV standard: NTSC
frame rate: 29.97 drop frame
field order: lower
PAR: standard
bitrate encoding: CBR
bitrate (Mbps): 7.0
GOP settings:
M frames: 3
N frames: 15
audio format: PCM
multiplexing: none

The video came out VERY jittery in most places. The audio was fine. The fade-outs had the same problem as before- cutting off when returning to the main menu.
The videos from before (6 I frames) looked much better (no jitter) than these.
Do you have any suggestions about format option settings in AE, or something in Encore to eliminate jitter, and stop the cutting off?
Maybe if I added a chapter point at the very end of the timelines in encore?

By the way, THANK YOU for being so helpful!!



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Joe Bowden
Re: Fade outs cutting off
on Jul 19, 2006 at 5:38:19 pm

What's the source of the original video? Is it DV footage, or something else?


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drumrob
Re: Fade outs cutting off
on Jul 20, 2006 at 5:00:47 pm

I have no idea why the fades are bailing out early. Maybe check that the audio files are the same length as the video.

But I believe that a GOP of 6, while maybe unusual, is not out of the DVD spec. Most of the lower cost encoders default to a length of 15, but the higher end encoders will let you set other parameters.

Have fun!

Rob


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Joe Bowden
Re: Fade outs cutting off
on Jul 20, 2006 at 6:41:26 pm

Whoops, Rob is right. 15 frames for a GOP is common, but no required by the DVD spec. 18 frames is definitely the limit for NTSC, according to the DVD spec. Sorry about that red herring...or half-herring. ;)


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eriness
Re: Fade outs cutting off
on Jul 20, 2006 at 7:45:28 pm

Actually, there is good news: it might be just that tv.
My boss went home and tried it on one of his tvs, and he said the fades were beautiful. It seems that DVDs burned from encore are tricky in many ways:
The same disc that worked fine in tv a at work, wouldn't even read in another tv at work. It had a lot of trouble loading in my tv at home, and eventually sort of crashed my DVD player and I had to unplug it, replug it.
In the tv at my boss's house the vignette completely blew out the center of the image (way too bright), and the looping video/audio I had on the main menu didn't loop at all, but stopped inbetween for a few seconds. Both of these were non-issues in the tv at work that read it.
Also, I cannot get the DVD duplication machine we have at work to even read it. We use this machine to duplicate all our DVDs, and I happen to know that a different DVD that was made with encore duplicates fine on it.



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Joe Bowden
Re: Fade outs cutting off
on Jul 20, 2006 at 9:33:32 pm

Ooh..this sounds like either poor quality media, too high burner speed, or a burner problem. My guess is one of the first two. Which brand of DVD media are you using, and what type (DVD-R or DVD+R), and at what speed are you burning it?


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eriness
Re: Fade outs cutting off
on Jul 20, 2006 at 9:41:26 pm

Ok, that's interesting. They are DVD-Rs, Sonic brand- we buy them in bulk . The speed is 8x- is that too high?



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Joe Bowden
Re: Fade outs cutting off
on Jul 20, 2006 at 9:52:38 pm

Higher burn speeds are more prone to write errors. For the least chance of burning errors, burn at the lowest speed available.

I've not heard of the Sonic brand of DVD media, so I don't have any idea of its quality level. Some well regarded brands are Taiyo Yuden, Verbatim, and TDK. You can find out more about DVD media quality by researching user reports at http://www.videohelp.com.


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eriness
Re: Fade outs cutting off
on Jul 20, 2006 at 10:09:41 pm

I just tried burning at 4x, and that didn't seem to help. But we don't have any other DVD brands here, so I'll give my boss the head's up. I'm sure he'll want to try out some good DVDs to make sure. It's good to know either way.

Thank you again for all your help!!!



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