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Chapter Playlist - Disfunctional in 2_0

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Gene Colburn
Chapter Playlist - Disfunctional in 2_0
on Jul 4, 2006 at 4:21:02 am

Im sorry, but this needs to be fixed, and my last check at Adobe updates shows zilch. There have been other posts here, and a few workarounds, including my own, but anyone attempting to use chapter playlists will be wasting their time. Case in point.

Project: Main timeline with 6 simple chapters and simple buttons one of which would be considered a play all that is picwhipped to chapter 1 for full timeline playback. Create new chapter playlist which autoassigns a left pallette add list. Drag chapters 2 through 6 to right pallette function list, and select appropriate chapter links. Choose end action for each chapter on chapter playlist back to default main menu, thus to bring the viewer back to the main menu to select after each desired chapter plays..... The end actions do not work, and the timeline playdown will disregard the end actions. If you assign end actions to the timeline chapter points, the play all function will not work, but the end actions do work. Just the opposite of what you want to happen. If you do it the other way around you will get the opposite results. Neither of which work correctly. Jeff Bellune has a work around that uses multiple playlists assigned to each chapter, but please Adobe fix this. My workaround is simple. Export multiple timelines for each chapter, and use a conventional playlist adding each timeline and action as needed. In otherwords the old way we used in Encore 1.0 and 1.5.




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Jeff Bellune
Re: Chapter Playlist - Disfunctional in 2_0
on Jul 4, 2006 at 4:34:39 am

Hi Gene,

If I understand you correctly, you have misinterpreted how Chapter Playlists are supposed to work. To clarify:

1. The chapters in a chapter playlist will play in the order that they are listed. If any of the chapters have end actions assigned to them, the chapter end actions will be ignored when the chapter playlist is played.

2. Chapter End Actions are set from the Properties panel for a chapter in a timeline.

3. Chapter End Actions will execute when a timeline is played.

To do what you want (individual chapters play and then return to a menu but with a Play All function available), you should explicitly set the end action for each chapter in the timeline to return to the appropriate menu. Then create a single Chapter Playlist, listing all of the chapters in order, as your Play All target.

HTH,
-Jeff

The Focal Easy Guide to Adobe Encore DVD 2.0


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Gene Colburn
Re: Chapter Playlist - Disfunctional in 2_0
on Jul 4, 2006 at 4:46:25 am

Jeff
I haven't misinterpreted. I have done exactly as outlined in Adobed Help for chapter play lists., and have done it numerous times. It does not work. If I do it as you outline, my chapter playlist will only play each chapter in the order that I arrange them. At the end of the last chapter, the end action will take it back to the first chapter and start a false play. If I do not assign an end action, Disk check will give an error that no end action has been assigned. I can work around this by assigning a false chapter at the timeline end, and assign no end action. Are you truly happy with this?



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Jeff Bellune
Re: Chapter Playlist - Disfunctional in 2_0
on Jul 4, 2006 at 12:34:04 pm

[Gene Colburn] " If I do it as you outline, my chapter playlist will only play each chapter in the order that I arrange them."

That is exactly how chapter playlists are supposed to work. I don't understand the problem?

[Gene Colburn] "At the end of the last chapter, the end action will take it back to the first chapter and start a false play."

What end action are you setting? It must be the same as the parent timeline. Do you have any overrides set anywhere in your rproject? Remove all of them.

[Gene Colburn] "I can work around this by assigning a false chapter at the timeline end, and assign no end action."

I seem to recall a discussion on the Adobe forum about a similar issue. I'll see if I can dig it up. I've used chapter playlists extensively, and I haven't had to use pretzel logic like this to get them to work.

-Jeff

The Focal Easy Guide to Adobe Encore DVD 2.0


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Jeff Bellune
Re: Chapter Playlist - Disfunctional in 2_0
on Jul 4, 2006 at 1:32:07 pm

This Adobe Forum thread has a similar discussion. There are 73 posts in the thread; I've linked to number 42 to start. There may be something in there that you can use to sort out your "false chapter" issue, and it includes a discussion of Button Transitions as well.

-Jeff

The Focal Easy Guide to Adobe Encore DVD 2.0


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Gene Colburn
Re: Chapter Playlist - Disfunctional in 2_0
on Jul 4, 2006 at 5:08:34 pm

Thanks Jeff
You are very much appreciated on this forum. I'll check out the posts. I know I did not do a very good job explaining my frusttation with Chapter Playlists. I just know they do not perform as described in Encore F1 help for chapter playlists. The minimal paragraphs there lead one to beleive that end actions, menu remotes, overides etc (within a chapter playlist)., behave as you would expect them to. They do not. This is very problematic for users that want to create a textbook workstudy style of workflow, with multiple menus, chapters, and subchapters. Creating individual chapter playlists for each chapter or group of chapters, for some of our work is impractical.


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Jeff Bellune
Re: Chapter Playlist - Disfunctional in 2_0
on Jul 4, 2006 at 8:21:03 pm

Thanks for the kind words, Gene.

I misspoke in an earlier post. You can set the end acton of a chapter playlist to anything that you want. It doesn't have to be tied to the parent timeline's end action. You need to set the Menu Remote property for the chapter playlist the same as the parent timeline. Sorry if this caused any confusion.

Can you email me a copy of your project file, with the project folder zipped to less than 10 MB? The email address is info at bellunevideo dot com. I'll quickly take a crack at setting up a chapter playlist and chapter end actions to give you the functionality that I think you want.

-Jeff

The Focal Easy Guide to Adobe Encore DVD 2.0


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Gene Colburn
Re: Chapter Playlist - Disfunctional in 2_0
on Jul 4, 2006 at 11:08:19 pm

Hi Jeff

[Jeff Bellune] "misspoke in an earlier post. You can set the end acton of a chapter playlist to anything that you want."
This does work just fine which is what I am using in final project with multiple playlists.

I got through this by setting up a playlist for each chapter, which f1 help and one of your previous threads did post. We ended up scaling down the menu options to do so. But the project is finished and working. I can send you the project file without media, and you can take a crack at what I was attempting to do which was to make it work with a single chapter playlist beginning with chapter 2, executing end actions within, while using the parent timeline without end actions for a play all from chapter 1 (as outlined in F1 help). I have not had any problems authoring this way using conventional playlists, and multiple timelines. It is only when I want to use end actions or other chapter links within the chapter playlist that there is an issue. Also, the need for a dummy end chapter at the end of timeline in my final project was still required, or I got the error message (end action will not execute because of end action on final chapter) in disc check . I did see similiar issues in the Adobe threads you linked me to as well. I have not had the crashes or vobulator error though. I might also add that my 1.5 Production bundle upgrade to 2.0 premium suite did not include any manuals, so I am using F1 help only to learn the new tools, which is usually better anyways. Also I've gotten over my frustration (with client waiting), and if this is how it is supposed to work, I can adapt.


Thanks once again for your help and patience.


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Jeff Bellune
Re: Chapter Playlist - Disfunctional in 2_0
on Jul 5, 2006 at 2:39:19 am

Whew!

How about if we go over this a little at a time?

1. I read the help files and they aren't very helpful. I think the info is accurate, it is just presented in a confusing manner. For example, the entry titled, "To create, populate, or edit a chapter playlist" has accurate, but completely irrelevant information in step 4. Step 4 contains info on how you can modify chapter properties from the chapter playlist, which is true, but typically those properties are modified from the Timeline Viewer. The info in step 4 really doesn't help anyone understand how to create, edit or even use a chapter playlist. Whereas the info in the above help file entry is too broad in its scope, the help file entry entitled, "About chapter playlists" is too narrow in its scope. It described only one way to approach using chapter playlists, and that example case is far too esoteric for general use.

[Gene Colburn] "what I was attempting to do which was to make it work with a single chapter playlist beginning with chapter 2, executing end actions within, while using the parent timeline without end actions for a play all from chapter 1"

2. Chapter end actions cannot execute within a chapter playlist. All of the chapters in a chapter playlist are designed to play in the order they are listed, and only when they are all done will the end action of the entire playlist be executed.

[Gene Colburn] "the need for a dummy end chapter at the end of timeline in my final project was still required, or I got the error message (end action will not execute because of end action on final chapter) in disc check"

3. You should never set the end action for the last chapter in a timeline. When the last chapter is done playing, the end action for the timeline will execute. If you think about it, that makes sense. The end action for a chapter executes when the chapter is done playing. The last chapter in a timeline should always have the same destination for its end action as the timeline end action's destination because there is nothing left to play in the timeline (it's done playing, too) when the last chapter is done playing. Hence the error message during Check Project.

Here is what I consider to be the best workflow for your type of project (I advocate it in my book as well):

1. Set individual chapter end actions to return to the previous menu when each chapter is done playing. Except, of course, for the last chapter. Instead, set the end action for the timeline to return to the last menu.

2. Create a single playlist with all of the chapters in sequence for a Play All function. Set the chapter playlist's end action to go to an appropriate menu.

That's it - you're done.

-Jeff

The Focal Easy Guide to Adobe Encore DVD 2.0


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Gene Colburn
Re: Chapter Playlist - Disfunctional in 2_0
on Jul 5, 2006 at 5:38:24 am

Whew... is right Jeff. I am not trying to prove me right you wrong, so please bear with me as I am just a little dumbfounded by what I read and what works.

[Jeff Bellune] "2. Chapter end actions cannot execute within a chapter playlist. All of the chapters in a chapter playlist are designed to play in the order they are listed, and only when they are all done will the end action of the entire playlist be executed."

I agree with that statement however, All of this can be done within a conventional play list, and appropriate links and timelines if needed.

This is key to the delima. What is the point of having the following addressable within a chapter playlist? The very first paragraph of (About Chapter Playlists) from the help files implies all actions are usable. (Stop, end, remote menu, etc. to paraphrase). This is reinforced in the ensuing examples although esoteric, I agree. None the less, I was assuming they were functional on a chapter by chapter basis. We are only talking about assigning functionality to chapter intervals within a chapter playlist. The final end action of the chapter playlist here is not whats at issue, nor the order, although both weigh importance. Of importance is what can be done within the confines of the chapter playlist to each chapter, and how they can be linked.

I am still dissappointed with a lack of functionality here, but I can live with it. I feel however that a very large workstudy workflow utilizing many menus, chapters, and buttons for chapters, subs, reviews, q&a, etc. would be very difficult to implement using chapter playlists. If on the otherhand actions within the chapter playlist were functional including end, it would be no problem at all.

Thanks for the other workflow examples. I will try them and see if I can build on them, and also shell out a few bucks for your book.

To others trying to follow all of this, I apologize for the fuzz. I visit this forum often, but post little, and forget that clarity needs to be foremost when describing an issue. By in large, Adobe has a great product here, and I do not want to confuse issues by alack of understanding of new enhancements.





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Jeff Bellune
Re: Chapter Playlist - Disfunctional in 2_0
on Jul 5, 2006 at 1:29:08 pm

Gene,

No worries. I never assumed a "me right, you wrong" discussion here. I'm just trying to help you understand what's going on with chapter playlists. :-)

[Gene Colburn] "All of this can be done within a conventional play list, and appropriate links and timelines if needed."

Almost, but not quite. You can manipulate timelines with a standard playlist, but not the chapters within a timeline. That's what chapter playlists are for. Another advantage of a chapter playlist is that seamless playback is possible if the listed chapters are in sequential order. That was never possible with the timelines in a standard playlist. A furher advantage is what the help files actually talk about: multiple ways to play back chapter intervals within a timeline, sequentially or non-sequentially, to address different audience needs. And Chapter Playlists, taken together with Standard Playlists, have made the need to use any Override commands anywhere virtually non-existant. Not using Override commands at all will help many, many users avoid all kinds of disc navigation and other errors. All this taken together makes chapter playlists a very powerful new feature, IMHO.

[Gene Colburn] "What is the point of having the following addressable within a chapter playlist? The very first paragraph of (About Chapter Playlists) from the help files implies all actions are usable. (Stop, end, remote menu, etc. to paraphrase)."

The help files say, and I quote, "You can also use chaper playlists to change the end action, menu remote, or other timeline properties" (emphasis added). Although both timelines and chapters can have end actions now, Menu Remote is specifically a timeline property, and that sentence refers to timeline properties, not chapter properties. The note that follows that paragraph in the help files reinforces what I said in my first paragraph.

[Gene Colburn] "We are only talking about assigning functionality to chapter intervals within a chapter playlist. The final end action of the chapter playlist here is not whats at issue, nor the order, although both weigh importance. Of importance is what can be done within the confines of the chapter playlist to each chapter, and how they can be linked."

On the contrary, the prime considerations for chapter playlists are the play order and the final end action, if only because what you suggest (what can be done within the confines of the chapter playlist) seems unworkable. Here are made-up examples of how I understand you assumed chapter playlists would work; please correct me if I am wrong:

1. A chapter playlist contains chapters 1 - 3, in order. then it has chapters 6, 5, 4, in that order. All chapters are from the same parent timeline.
2. Play chapters 1, 2, and 3 in the chapter playlist. Chapter 3, which has no end action in the timeline, has an end action in this chapter playlist to return to the main menu.
3. You're back at the main menu - now what?

-or-

1. Same playlist.
2. Chapter 3's end action (only in the playlist) is to go to chapter 6 and have it play.
3. If you want chapter 6 to play after chapter 3, then all you have to do is list chapter 6 after chapter 3 in the playlist - no end action needed.

If my examples are off-target, please correct me (using examples like mine). I think it's important for me to sort out exactly how you envisioned chapter playlists would work becuase if you are on to something here that I don't see, then it might make a really useful feature request for the next version of Encore.

-Jeff

The Focal Easy Guide to Adobe Encore DVD 2.0


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Gene Colburn
Re: Chapter Playlist - Disfunctional in 2_0
on Jul 5, 2006 at 4:46:38 pm

Yes you are spot on with this example



[Jeff Bellune] "
1. Same playlist.
2. Chapter 3's end action (only in the playlist) is to go to chapter 6 and have it play.
3. If you want chapter 6 to play after chapter 3, then all you have to do is list chapter 6 after chapter 3 in the playlist - no end action needed."


But lets say for example I want to go to a splash screen after chapter 3 that may have supportive info, or a link to another timeline, or a skip button, which would take me back to chapter 6. Does that make sense? The work around would be to create individual chapter playlists with appropriate end action links. That will work, but is more cumbersome.

The following was copied directly from the help files.

Chapter playlists function much as playlists do, but provide a means of playing a single timeline


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