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How to avoid full re-render after small changes in some files

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Brodd Nesset
How to avoid full re-render after small changes in some files
on Nov 3, 2005 at 12:56:42 pm

Hi! The title says it all, I hope. My client typically has found a spelling mistake in a menu on one of my DVDs. After correcting the mistake, I save the project and choose 'Make disc'. Then Encore starts to re-transcode all the files involved, and this - as most of you will be well aware - takes hours! I use DV-files for this project, and lots of them (many short files intstead of some longer - it fits this project best). Since none(!) of these are changed, why does Encore opt to delete the previous transcodes and start to render a complete set of new ones. This is 99% wasted work. I've checked in Explorer that my precious MPEG2-files are actually deleted.

There should be a project setting somewhere to avoid this, but if there is I haven't been able to find it. Please 'bear with me'; I operate semi-professionally as a general multimedia developer; DVDs are just one delivery platform so I'm not an expert on this medium at all.


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Joe Bowden
Re: How to avoid full re-render after small changes in some files
on Nov 3, 2005 at 3:29:07 pm

Encore does not delete transcoded files after building a DVD.

Which version of Encore are you using?


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Brodd Nesset
Re: How to avoid full re-render after small changes in some files
on Nov 3, 2005 at 4:03:25 pm

I use v1.5

What happens is: my project is assembled out of ca. 40 DV-files. Upon transcoding, a folder for each file is created, and in each there is one MPEG2-file, amongst a few other files. A main folder with the name of the project is wrapped around it all. Even when I do minute changes to the menus only, and save the project under the same name, the contents in the main folder is deleted immediately when I select 'Create Disc'. I can see this in Windows Explorer, and it happens every time. 4.2 Gb of perfect and already rendered files is not 'good enough' for Encore?!?!?

The same happens if I change say one of the forty DV-files; adjusts its length for instance.


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Joe Bowden
Re: How to avoid full re-render after small changes in some files
on Nov 3, 2005 at 4:44:33 pm

Here, I think, may be a clue:

"Even when I do minute changes to the menus only, and save the project under the same name, the contents in the main folder is deleted immediately when I select 'Create Disc'. "

Which folder are you referring to? The original project folder, or the new project folder created when you did a SaveAs?


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Dave Friend
Re: How to avoid full re-render after small changes in some files
on Nov 3, 2005 at 4:05:20 pm

Brodd,

One small change in your work flow might help. I suggest that you not import AVI files into encore. Instead, encode your DV avi files to mpeg2 files and import these mpeg files into Encore. You can tell Encore not to transcode these files further. You will find DVD builds go a lot faster. Then the type of changes you describe will become trivial instead of an ordeal.

You have to manually do some bit budgeting before you encode to mpeg so you know that all the video will fit on the DVD. There are numerous online resources that will help you with that task.

Hope this helps.

Dave


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Joe Bowden
Re: How to avoid full re-render after small changes in some files
on Nov 3, 2005 at 4:46:26 pm

Transcode in Premiere or transcode in Encore...you have to wait somewhere.

No, working with AVIs in Encore is perfectly valid and efficient...Encore does not need to re-transcode. Something else is going wrong for Brodd.


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Dave Friend
Re: How to avoid full re-render after small changes in some files
on Nov 3, 2005 at 5:57:45 pm

[Joe Bowden] "Transcode in Premiere or transcode in Encore...you have to wait somewhere."
True but if you import an mpeg file into Encore the Transcode Status will be set to Don't Transcode. Logically, Don't Transcode does not apply to avi imports.

[Joe Bowden] "Encore does not need to re-transcode."
And yet it is.

Brodd, does the project window show a Transcode Status of Transcoded prior to starting the build?

[Joe Bowden] "Something else is going wrong for Brodd."

Perhaps it is the selection of Automatic for the transcode option? does it seem possible that, for some unknown reason, Encore is deciding that in order to fit the disc it has to transcode again?

Brood, are you using Automatic for the transcode setting?

Dave


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Joe Bowden
Re: How to avoid full re-render after small changes in some files
on Nov 3, 2005 at 6:15:05 pm

Dave, there is some other problem occurring.

If you transcode an AVI and save the project, you should never have to transcode it in that project again- this is regardless of whether Automatic or a transcoding preset is used.

I'd like to find out the nature of the problem Brodd is seeing, not work around it.


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Dave Friend
Re: How to avoid full re-render after small changes in some files
on Nov 3, 2005 at 6:49:29 pm

[Joe Bowden] "you should never have to transcode it in that project again"

Agreed. That has been my experience. However, I haven't used Encore to create a DVD with 40 or so timelines either.

[Joe Bowden] "this is regardless of whether Automatic or a transcoding preset is used."

Maybe, maybe not. With the large number of assets that he is using I don't find it impossible that the Automatic function is deciding that things need to be juggled to make the fit. I'm not saying that is the problem. Just an avenue to explore.

[Joe Bowden] "not work around it."
You imply the creating mpeg instead of AVI files for use with encore is a work around. If that is your thinking, I beg to differ. Personally, I find it much more efficient to export mpeg from Premiere. Then I don't have to wait first for the AVI export and then again for the mpeg encode. Secondly, I don't have what can be rather large avi files taking up drive space. Thirdly, I can use the encoder of my choice instead of the Main Concept encoder employed by Encore. But hey, that


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Joe Bowden
Re: How to avoid full re-render after small changes in some files
on Nov 3, 2005 at 8:01:33 pm

Sorry if I misunderstood you, Dave. I thought from your original comment that you were suggesting using MPEG-2 over AVI in Encore. The point I was trying to make was that what Brodd is describing should not happen, and does not happen for me. Not that it can't happen.

Which is why I was asking to get to the root of the problem, and not necessarily take a detour that might solve the immediate problem, but not the problem Brodd is seeing.


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Brodd Nesset
Re: How to avoid full re-render
on Nov 3, 2005 at 8:19:27 pm

The external disk is Firewire, I don't use other devices (add/remove) except this one, but anyway how could that matter? The already transcoded files are on the internal disk, as is the Project file.

The files all read as Transcoded in the project window. Still Encore deletes them all and starts from the top when I make a new disc. Go figure.

I'm pretty certain I use 'Automatic' for Transcode settings (there is no check-sign outside anyting in that sub-menu). However when I go to preferences for Edit Transcode setting, I get PAL 2 MBPS, which seems reasonable for what I want & get.


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Brodd Nesset
Re: How to avoid full re-render...
on Nov 3, 2005 at 7:04:04 pm

Thanks for replies guys. I'm in the middle of a re-render right now - groan... This could make a difference or not:
- I do NOT use 'Save as' for my edited project, only a simple 'save'
- The DV files are on an external disk, while the transcodes are built on the internal disk - side by side with the Project file.

BTW I opt to use DV-files out of Premiere since the total length pushes the limit for what I can fit onto a disc, and Encore is so convenient in shoehorning it in automatically. Still it should not owerwrite its own files (transdodes) when they are perfectly OK already.


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Dave Friend
Re: How to avoid full re-render...
on Nov 3, 2005 at 7:37:34 pm

[Brodd Nesset] "The DV files are on an external disk, while the transcodes are built on the internal disk - side by side with the Project file."

Maybe it is the external drive? Have you used this drive on other projects without re-render issues? I don't see why it would matter but you never know.

What does the Transcode Status column in the Project window indicate before you begin the disc build? Does Encore 'see' the files as Transcoded?

Dave



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Joe Bowden
Re: How to avoid full re-render...
on Nov 3, 2005 at 8:03:26 pm

Brodd, what's the path to your external disc? And the device- is it USB2 or Firewire?

Thanks,
Joe


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Brodd Nesset
Re: How to avoid full re-render...
on Nov 3, 2005 at 8:20:40 pm

[I also posted this further up, by accident]

The external disk is Firewire, I don't use other devices (add/remove) except this one, but anyway how could that matter? The already transcoded files are on the internal disk, as is the Project file.

The files all read as Transcoded in the project window. Still Encore deletes them all and starts from the top when I make a new disc. Go figure.

I'm pretty certain I use 'Automatic' for Transcode settings (there is no check-sign outside anyting in that sub-menu). However when I go to preferences for Edit Transcode setting, I get PAL 2 MBPS, which seems reasonable for what I want & get.


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Joe Bowden
Re: How to avoid full re-render...
on Nov 3, 2005 at 8:34:01 pm

How could it matter? Well, that's what I'm trying to find out- what you describe doesn't happen for me.

More likely, it's an issue with your project (I'll still investigate the external drive scenario). If you create a new project with a single AVI file imported from your external drive, add it to a timeline, then build a DVD folder and close, saving the project, does it still happen?


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Brodd Nesset
Re: How to avoid full re-render...
on Nov 4, 2005 at 7:35:46 am

...Thanks for the suggestions guys. I'm in another timezone, and will try your suggestion (setting up a little test-project) friday.

It makes sense that Encore needs to do a re-transcode when the project changes in file-size. However I'm only correcting spelling mistakes in a couple of menus, and how much difference could that make? Well, I'll be back with the results in some hours.


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Brodd Nesset
Re: How to avoid full re-render...
on Dec 6, 2005 at 9:53:48 am

For anyone looking up this older thread, or searching that topic, here's an update:
The external Firewore drive seems to be the culprit, definetly. This does NOT mean that I recommend against useng such storage devices in general. My setup might be a little 'special', as the drive is routed through my external soundcard first. This is from M-Audio and performs great by the way, but: there have been some whining from the Windows camp that their units while performing flawlessly on the Mac, sometimes have 'issues' on Windows. Indeed I have had to reinstall the driver for it a couple of times, when it has mysteriously 'disappeared' from my config. This slight unstability might or might not play a role for the harddisk next in the chain (the soundcard will not work if I flip the row). Nevertheless this is still a mystery, because the external harddisk always boots with the same drive-letter, and it's always available from Explorer. Still sometimes Encore loads previous projects from it completely transparent, other times it claims to miss some files which indeed are where they should be(!), and on top of it this strange behavior of sometimes re-transcoding discs from the bottom for each disc copy I make ... oh dear. Nothing is concistent, but when I move every file in a project over to an internal disk, there's never a problem with Encore.


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