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EX-3 1080 24P is recording with 3:2 pulldown?

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Jim Watt
EX-3 1080 24P is recording with 3:2 pulldown?
on Apr 16, 2010 at 11:53:55 pm

When the Ex-3 set at HQ 1080/24P is recording on S x S cards, is it recording with 3:2 pulldown or is it recording native 24P?

When I look at clip properties they say it is 23.98 fps. If I do a test in SP mode, the frame rate is 60i.

I need the 3:2 pulldown for a client who can't edit real 24P an need to know if I'm OK in HQ or need to go to the SP mode.

thx...jw

Producer/DP, HD series, "Discoveries...America", "Discoveries...Ireland", "Discoveries...Spain",
"Discoveries...Argentina", Discoveries...India", "Discoveries...Asia", "Discoveries...Africa"


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Tim Kolb
Re: EX-3 1080 24P is recording with 3:2 pulldown?
on Apr 17, 2010 at 12:10:32 am

what NLE software doesn't handle 23.976 psf these days?

I only use HQ mode...so I assume that SD mode is 25 Mbits? If so, it's basically HDV, and I would guess that's why it would switch.

TimK,
Director, Consultant
Kolb Productions,


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Jim Watt
Re: EX-3 1080 24P is recording with 3:2 pulldown?
on Apr 17, 2010 at 12:31:40 am

So in the HQ mode the 24P is 24psf and not true or pure 24P?

thx...jw

Producer/DP, HD series, "Discoveries...America", "Discoveries...Ireland", "Discoveries...Spain",
"Discoveries...Argentina", Discoveries...India", "Discoveries...Asia", "Discoveries...Africa"


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Tim Kolb
Re: EX-3 1080 24P is recording with 3:2 pulldown?
on Apr 17, 2010 at 12:44:01 am

psf or progressive segmented frame is how the frame is sent, not how it's imaged.

on the EX camcorders, progressive is progressive. psf helps some monitors and vtrs deal with the footage through SDI

TimK,
Director, Consultant
Kolb Productions,


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David Burch
Re: EX-3 1080 24P is recording with 3:2 pulldown?
on Apr 17, 2010 at 1:35:40 am

As far as I know, in HQ mode the 24p settings are true progressive. I haven't shot in SP so I wasn't aware it applied a pulldown, but I guess it makes sense when you figure that SP mode is basically HDV.


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Roger Hendrick
Re: EX-3 1080 24P is recording with 3:2 pulldown?
on Apr 17, 2010 at 11:30:41 pm

It records to SxS in HQ mode as true 24p but the signal out of SDI is 24psf (if you apply the menu setting).

Roger Hendrick
The Airship Factory
http://www.airshipfactory.com
HD Video Production - Blu-ray Authoring


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Roger Hendrick
Re: EX-3 1080 24P is recording with 3:2 pulldown?
on Apr 17, 2010 at 11:49:13 pm

Just another note... The EX series 24p is actually 23.98 (you have to go F900 to get 24p - if you really want it) and for any NTSC workflow, 23.98 is the appropriate frame rate. I believe it's still considered a 'pulldown' because it's 24/1.001 so for film you'll need 24 frames but for anything HD in the NTSC world you use 23.98 (for acquisition/post and DI) and of course 25p for PAL folks.

Roger Hendrick
The Airship Factory
http://www.airshipfactory.com
HD Video Production - Blu-ray Authoring


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Jim Watt
Re: EX-3 1080 24P is recording with 3:2 pulldown?
on Apr 18, 2010 at 2:25:41 pm

Thanks to everyone for the insight. Our client can use the 1080/24P in their system, so it works.

thx...jw

Producer/DP, HD series, "Discoveries...America", "Discoveries...Ireland", "Discoveries...Spain",
"Discoveries...Argentina", Discoveries...India", "Discoveries...Asia", "Discoveries...Africa"


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David Burch
Re: EX-3 1080 24P is recording with 3:2 pulldown?
on Apr 18, 2010 at 8:16:50 pm

Yep...good point to remember :) However, I don't believe 23.98 is considered "pulled down" but rather drop frame. Pulldown is when fields are repeated in order to conform one frame rate to another; I don't believe any frames or fields are being repeated in a 23.98 timeline, although it probably is necessary to repeat a frame every couple of thousand or so when transferring to film. I've never done a film-out so I'm not sure how that conversion works.


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Tim Kolb
Re: EX-3 1080 24P is recording with 3:2 pulldown?
on Apr 19, 2010 at 1:18:00 pm

Yes, I'd agree with David.

I would not refer to 23.976 fps as a "pulldown" in the context that term is traditionally used-defining a system of duplicating frames. It's a re-clock, or depending on how the frames are NUMBERED (I've spent some time trying to convince some people that "drop frame" is not actually dropping a physical frame), it could be referred to as drop-frame.

Transferring 23.976 to film would simply mean imaging the film at the clock of the video playback...and then projecting it at 24 fps. The difference is far smaller than 24 to 25 fps when film is transferred to PAL...and that's how that is done with some audio pitch correction.

As far as an F900...I didn't know that would do 24 fps. I shot on an independent feature some time ago on an F900 and don't recall seeing a 24 fps setting. We shot at 23.976psf.



TimK,
Director, Consultant
Kolb Productions,


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john sharaf
Re: EX-3 1080 24P is recording with 3:2 pulldown?
on Apr 19, 2010 at 2:53:03 pm

Tim,

Yes the F900 can shoot 24p in addition to 23.97fps. This way you can use the camera to shoot scenes or shots that when filmed out will drop into film A and B rolls in sync. Obviously whatever sound is on the video would not be in sync.

JS





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Tim Kolb
Re: EX-3 1080 24P is recording with 3:2 pulldown?
on Apr 19, 2010 at 3:10:02 pm

Hi John,

We were shooting sound, and they did post as HD...

It's been about 3 years since I've touched an F900, so I suppose it was there and I've just had it leak out of my memory (which seems to happen more and more these days.)

As much as the whole prime adapter thing isn't my everyday mode of operation (I prefer something like a D21 which realizes much more of the image quality of the optics), the camera did a nice job with a reasonable set of Zeiss primes.



TimK,
Director, Consultant
Kolb Productions,


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Roger Hendrick
Re: EX-3 1080 24P is recording with 3:2 pulldown?
on Apr 19, 2010 at 4:30:20 pm

In my experience 'pulldown' refers to slowing the footage and for 24p film telecine it would need to be slowed by 24/1.001 to fit in with HD NTSC workflow at 23.98. Pulldown with a ratio like '3:2 pulldown' refers to duplicating frames or interpolating fields to fit in a larger spatial time like 29.97 in the referenced pattern. This has nothing to do with drop/non-drop and is a common misconception (my referring to 24 -> 23.98 as pulldown not withstanding... we all contribute to the confusion). One major problem with the Canon 5DMkII before the firmware was updated was that it shot in 30p. This was not shorthand for 29.97 and required an extra step (in Cinema Tools for instance) to play nice in an NTSC workflow. That's the crux of the miss-communication - these terms 24p, 30p etc. are being used as shorthand for 23.98 and 29.97 when they do exist as their own frame rates and are not interchangeable. Likewise 29.97 can be numbered in either Drop or Non-Drop timecode, it's still 29.97 and the timecode numbering (dropping a frame number but of course you're still keeping the frame intact) is completely different than the actual frame rate or timing.

Here's a link to Sony's product spec for the HDWF900R. They specify 24p and 23.98 as available frame rates.
http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/product-HDWF900R/

Here's a link to someone else's 24p/23.98 response using 'pulldown' to describe it.
http://www.highdef.com/library/faq.htm

And a good description on Wikipedia here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24p


Roger Hendrick
The Airship Factory
http://www.airshipfactory.com
HD Video Production - Blu-ray Authoring


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john sharaf
Re: EX-3 1080 24P is recording with 3:2 pulldown?
on Apr 19, 2010 at 5:19:56 pm

One other bit of useful information is that there drop frame is only used in 29.97 and 59.94 rates, it does not apply to 23.97 and even if it's e4ngaged in the camera menu it is overruled by the 23.97/24 setting. In addition it does not apply to non-fractional, meaning interger frame rates like "true" 24 and 25p and 50i.

Drop frame, as I'm sure has been mentioned here many times before originated with the introduction of color in the 50's and allowed for extra "color burst" signal to be included in the frame such that they needed to create extra room. Furthermore because of the standard, the sound speed was altered slightly too so that it needed to be recorded at 23.97/29.97 to stay in sync.

JS



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David Burch
Re: EX-3 1080 24P is recording with 3:2 pulldown?
on Apr 19, 2010 at 9:21:06 pm

John is correct on this. I have gotten in to the bad habit of calling any frame rate that's not an integer "drop frame". *sigh* Video was much more simple when all editing was done tape to tape :D


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Steve Wargo
Pulldown Explained
on Apr 27, 2010 at 5:54:57 am

Here ya go on the pulldown issue.
http://www.zerocut.com/tech/pulldown.html'



Steve Wargo
Tempe, Arizona
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Sony HDCAM F-900 & HDW-2000/1 deck
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