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EX 23.98 footage final delivery to 59.94

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Mike Sorel
EX 23.98 footage final delivery to 59.94
on Jan 25, 2010 at 11:28:04 pm

Hi,

Planning to shoot a lifestyle show on the EX1R, the director and I would like to shoot the show at 23.98 for the aesthetic. The editor is telling us that the conversion from 23.98, to 59.94 delivery will be too time consuming since the we have a tight deadline.

I am wondering if a possible solution for this would be to use a Convergent Design Nanoflash to record the 23.98 HD-SDI output at 59.94. Then our editor can work in 59.94 project and deliver much faster without having to convert the footage in post. Am I on the right track or way off base with this workflow?

Mike


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Noah Kadner
Re: EX 23.98 footage final delivery to 59.94
on Jan 26, 2010 at 2:00:13 am

Far better handled at the end of post so you keep a clean native 24p edit throughout. There are many hardware boxes that do this automatically out to tape or whatever. I'm guessing you'll be delivering a tape at some point...

Noah

Check out my book: RED: The Ultimate Guide to Using the Revolutionary Camera! Unlock the secrets of 24p, HD and Final Cut Studio.
Call Box Training now featuring the Sony EX1 Guidebook, Panasonic HVX200, Canon EOS 5D Mark II and Canon 7D,
Apple Tablet Blog.


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Mike Sorel
Re: EX 23.98 footage final delivery to 59.94
on Jan 26, 2010 at 5:44:36 pm

Thanks Noah,

We will be delivering on Betacam SP for the broadcaster in the end. It sounds like doing the conversion after the edit may be a good solution in the end. Less headaches on the road during production.

Mike



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Craig Seeman
Re: EX 23.98 footage final delivery to 59.94
on Jan 26, 2010 at 6:23:51 pm

One important reason to edit in 24 (23.98) and go to 29.97 (59.94) after editing is to have a consistent pull down cadence. All sorts of odd edits can happen otherwise.

With a 24fps sequence it then becomes very easy to go to PAL 25 with speed change and NTSC 29.97 by adding the pull down.

Basically 24fps is the "universal" language that others can be derived from.

BTW it irks me to say that since I personally don't like the low temporal resolution of 24. I'd much prefer to shoot 60p but will settle for 30p. 30p gives you the progressive frames but with a bit better temporal resolution than 24. It is NOT an easy "language" to translate since it doesn't translate to 25 easily.

Why back when I remember when the world was talking about HD standards there was hope that there would truly be a "universal" frame rate. Alas that never happened.



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Noah Kadner
Re: EX 23.98 footage final delivery to 59.94
on Jan 26, 2010 at 6:29:13 pm

24p is the universal frame rate. There's not a major motion picture or TV show being produced in 30p- at least in the U.S. these days.

Noah

Check out my book: RED: The Ultimate Guide to Using the Revolutionary Camera! Unlock the secrets of 24p, HD and Final Cut Studio.
Call Box Training now featuring the Sony EX1 Guidebook, Panasonic HVX200, Canon EOS 5D Mark II and Canon 7D,
Apple Tablet Blog.


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Craig Seeman
Re: EX 23.98 footage final delivery to 59.94
on Jan 26, 2010 at 6:47:23 pm

But I cringe at the low temporal resolution. I know it's just me (and a few other folks) but it really bothers me (my eyes). Maybe I was born with crappy persistence of vision.

I would love to see a fast sporting event at 720p24 and 720p60 and see how many people notice the difference.

I must not be the only one who can see this . . . or maybe the people who fantasize about 1080p60 are all crazy.

If it all comes down to "flavor" of the day, I find 60 pictures a second tastier. Maybe I'm just part of a small group of people who prefer mustard instead of ketchup on my fries.



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Clint Fleckenstein
Re: EX 23.98 footage final delivery to 59.94
on Jan 27, 2010 at 10:13:23 pm

"But I cringe at the low temporal resolution. I know it's just me (and a few other folks) but it really bothers me (my eyes). Maybe I was born with crappy persistence of vision. "

I'm with ya, pal. I'm sure that if old film cameras cranked at 30 frames per second, 30p would be the really "cool" way to shoot now...and people would laugh at 24p.

Cf


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Alan Okey
Re: EX 23.98 footage final delivery to 59.94
on Jan 27, 2010 at 11:01:00 pm

[Craig Seeman] "If it all comes down to "flavor" of the day, I find 60 pictures a second tastier. Maybe I'm just part of a small group of people who prefer mustard instead of ketchup on my fries. "

You're right, it's all about "flavor" and the psychology of aesthetics. To my eye, 60p = "live" or "soap opera." 24p looks more romanticized and detached, more filmic.

It's probably just psychological conditioning, but a temporal resolution of 60fps appears cheesy and live to me - I would find it distracting to watch a big budget dramatic feature shot in 60p. I don't want it to appear live.

Clearly, 60p is superior for sports events and a live look. For dramatic material, I don't think a greater temporal resolution is necessarily an improvement. I think it's precisely the detached, romanticized quality of a lower temporal resolution that gives film much of its aesthetic appeal.

Just my opinion.


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Rafael Amador
Re: EX 23.98 footage final delivery to 59.94
on Jan 26, 2010 at 6:35:15 pm

[Mike Sorel] "I am wondering if a possible solution for this would be to use a Convergent Design Nanoflash to record the 23.98 HD-SDI output at 59.94."
The NANO can not do that.
It can only records what the camera out put through the SDI. If you have the camera at 24, it will records like that.
rafael



http://www.nagavideo.com


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David Burch
Re: EX 23.98 footage final delivery to 59.94
on Apr 17, 2010 at 2:32:11 am

I agree with Alan; for many things, the "film" look of 24p can actually add to the aesthetic, as long as it's shot correctly.

As for workflow, I highly recommend staying in 24p throughout and simply adding pulldown when going from the computer to your final tape. The AJA Kona does a wonderful job of both adding pulldown and downconverting (if you need that) in real time, so no software frame rate conversion is necessary.


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