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MxR adaptor problems for EX1

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Ed Mellnik
MxR adaptor problems for EX1
on Jan 18, 2010 at 8:47:30 pm

I have been blaming SD cards for problems with corrupt files but seem to have have narrowed the problem down to the MxR adapters.
I sent one back and they sent me a new and improved one but still having issues that seem to follow the adaptor and not the SD card.

I have been using Sandisk 16gb Class 4 SDHC cards in the MxR adaptors.

I was getting a lot of error messages in the middle of recording and on the new adapter I was playing back a long performance and it just stopped playing after about 5 minutes.

I also have a HoodMan adapter. The problem does not happen in the Hoodman adapter.
I find that the camera gets warm around the memory slots after it has been reading or writing for over an hour.
My theory is that the heat is effecting the MxR adapter somehow.
I have swapped slots and adapters and the problem follows the MxR after the camera is sufficiently warm.
More testing will have to happen to be able to totally confirm this.
I have ordered Transcend 16gb cards to see if they are going to work with the MxR adapter any better.


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Aaron Leong
Re: MxR adaptor problems for EX1
on Jan 18, 2010 at 8:52:49 pm

Hi Ed,

I too use MxR, but was told to use class 6 or higher. I was told that anything lower than 6 would be too slow. As it is, you can't do any overcranking with 6. I've not had any problems with the MxR except when i try to shoot at 60fps. Thats when I get the error message in the middle of recording. Anyway, let me know what you figure out!!

~aaron



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Craig Seeman
Re: MxR adaptor problems for EX1
on Jan 18, 2010 at 9:02:29 pm

Ross of MXR (e-films) has said that Sandisk Ultras should work (Class 4 currently).
I've been using 32GB Ultra Class 2 for a year without issue but you can't get them anymore.
I would not trust Transcend at all these days. Too many people are having issues.

Sandisk Extreme (Class 10) or ATP ProMax (Class 6) seems to be the reliable choices these days but again Ross says he's having good luck with Ultra Class 4.



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Ed Mellnik
Re: MxR adaptor problems for EX1
on Jan 18, 2010 at 9:42:56 pm

This is not at all what I get from Ross or ALex. In a recent email they have told me that the Sandisk are no longer a good choice and suggest I buy Transcend. So I don't get it. They are sending confusing messages.


EMA VIDEO
Portland Oregon


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Ed Mellnik
Re: MxR adaptor problems for EX1
on Jan 18, 2010 at 9:45:04 pm

I was told by them that Class 4 worked fine. I do not do any overclocking. Just straight HD HQ and HDV recording on my EX1.

Ed

EMA VIDEO
Portland Oregon


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Craig Seeman
Re: MxR adaptor problems for EX1
on Jan 18, 2010 at 9:51:05 pm

I assume this is a follow up on your other post about Sandisk Class 4. Ross recently did some tests and found Sandisk Class 4 is OK. With EX1, I'd never overcrank on SDHC.

On the other hand, it appears Sony made major improvements to the USB handling in the EX1r and I'm hearing people have no issues going full on 24/60 with various cards (Extreme Class 10 is one of them but there are others I believe).



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Marek Bilski
Re: MxR adaptor problems for EX1
on Jan 19, 2010 at 9:46:48 am

Hi Ed, I can't comment on how hot your MxR is getting, but all electronic equipment will produce heat,including Sony's SxS memory card. In our extensive tests, SxS memory cards will get warm to touch and so will MxM and so will other adapters we have tested. Heat dispersal will vary depending also upon the memory used. I've conducted marathon sessions of 48 hours non stop recording...with MxM using Hoodman Raw, ATP and SanDisk with a variation of 16GB and 32GB memory cards and all I was doing was formatting the cards on the camera when they were full. They were switching from Slot A to B without any issues and they were in the camera for that period and there was no media error, issues with recording, the files were fine. Yes they were warm but they were not hot...Regarding SanDisk, we have a database of clients who have been happy with SanDisk and have been using it for almost a year now with the original MxR and now with MxM and without any issues.
On our website we have recently added a new tab called Tested working media which compiles data which might be of assistance to you.

MxM Express


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Michael Slowe
Re: MxR adaptor problems for EX1
on Jan 19, 2010 at 11:07:17 am

Sony made the EX cameras specifically to use their S x S cards for recording media. I would not dream of using anything else. You are spending thousands on the camera and other kit, not to mention post production facilities, why economise on the most important bit, the media? You don't need many cards, downloading files is easy and fast, even on location.

Michael Slowe


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Marek Bilski
Re: MxR adaptor problems for EX1
on Jan 19, 2010 at 12:18:36 pm

Hi Michael, re "Sony made the EX cameras specifically to use their S x S cards", I disagree..the EX1/EX3 and the more recent EX1R, all are designed to work with SxS media however, they have a built in USB 2.0 interface. If Sony did not want anyone to use anything but SxS Pro media, they would not release equipment with USB 2.0 interface available, but only PCI-E. Sony's own external recorder is USB 2.0 interface. Additionally, by having reasonably priced adapters to work with SDHC on the market, this was helping Sony sell more cameras and as well benefited you guys by having far cheaper SxS memory cards as time went by...The new EX1R has actually had it's USB 2.0 interface improved by Sony and we are achieving results on par with the SxS. The older SxS was built on SLC platform whereas the newest SxS memory cards are built on a MLC platform which is the same platform as SDHC memory cards. SxS memory cards are prone to media errors as well. The fundamental problems is the consumer's choice of memory card because not all memory cards are built equally. I do own a few SxS memory cards, but I never have had to use them because the adapters and SDHC cards are working flawlessly and the workflow is far easier to manage than SxS workflow. Yes, it takes longer to download the data to your PC but this is the only drawback...

MxM Express


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Craig Seeman
Re: MxR adaptor problems for EX1
on Jan 19, 2010 at 3:08:19 pm

Well said Marek.

I'll add that SDHC is affordable enough that you actually REDUCE risk of human error. You can buy enough cards that one no longer has to risk offloading during the shoot to clear cards. A huge number of errors I see here and on other forums are people rushing the copy and not checking in order to get a card back into service.

It's affordable to buy four 32GB SDHC cards for nearly 8 hours of recording. On the other hand the price of four 32GB SxS cards would have put you well on your way (about half way) to buying another EX1 or a whole lot more kit to improve your production value.



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Craig Seeman
Re: MxR adaptor problems for EX1
on Jan 19, 2010 at 3:00:36 pm

[Michael Slowe] "Sony made the EX cameras specifically to use their S x S cards for recording media."

Not quite true. Sony also made their external hard drive for the camera which is USB Express card based (and also can't overcrank). With that firmware upgrade for the EX1 (EX3 was capable right out of the box) it became capable of using USB based devices. The problem is the controllers in the SDHC cards and issues with Sony's implementation of the bus control.

Reports are that the EX1R can use an adaptor and good SDHC cards (Sandisk Extreme or ATP ProMax) and get full 24/60 overcrank.

My EX1, MXR and Sandisk cards have been without error from first use a year ago.

Even Sony now offers a memory stick option with the EX1R.





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Tom Keller
Re: MxR adaptor problems for EX1
on Jan 19, 2010 at 5:29:19 pm

Thanks for everyones' rapid responses! Tom


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Michael Slowe
Re: MxR adaptor problems for EX1
on Jan 19, 2010 at 5:30:53 pm

Ok OK I'm told off once again but I was being provocative. Even so I always try and use combinations of kit as manufacturers intend and they must have intended us to use the S x S cards. How come there's been so many queries from other card users and very very few from users of Sx S ?

Michael Slowe


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Craig Seeman
Re: MxR adaptor problems for EX1
on Jan 19, 2010 at 5:46:19 pm

[Michael Slowe] "How come there's been so many queries from other card users and very very few from users of Sx S ? "
Because people don't do research and don't buy cards with recent tested track records.
Sony's own EX1 Hard Drive also does not overcrank very well.

BTW there have been queries from SxS users with corrupted data. One common them seems to be that data from SDHC cards, which are non proprietary, seem to be EASIER to rescue with repair utilities than SxS cards.

Proprietary media is on the decline IMHO as SDHC and Compact Flash improve.

The great thing about SDHC is that I can handle this with any computer with a card reader I can pick up in any office supply store. That makes offsite backup very easy. On the other hand if you don't have Sony's own PCIe reader or laptop with Express Port and/or if either of those go "wonky" on you. There's no way to grab a replacement.

Sandisk Extreme cards are readily available if you need just one more during a shoot.

Basically proprietary media is generally a more catastrophic point of failure.

You didn't see all the posts when Sony didn't have their SxS drivers ready for OS 10.6? . . . for MONTHS. Needing a driver is another point of failure.

People using SDHC cards had no such problem.




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Marek Bilski
Re: MxR adaptor problems for EX1
on Jan 19, 2010 at 7:54:17 pm

Absolutely Craig....
Also, in relation to corrupt media with SanDisk and Transcend, not all customers are divulging their workflow of their adapter and memory card. We had 1 case where the customer had returned a SanDisk 16GB class 4 not working and when I did a test check on it, this memory card contained jpeg files, tif files, gif files and had been used on Canon 450 DSLR...so in order for me to get this memory card working again, I had to reformat it a few times on a PC afterwhich I could use it again on the EX1 without any issues, whereas previously the same memory card would show up "media error". There are a lot of customers who managed to buy very cheap Transcend and SanDisk, even from reputable companies which were fake, believing that they were original which obviously will cause huge problems because the firmware is really flakey.
2 reasons for media errors...
1. the memory card's firmware failure; and
2. internal components on the memory card not being durable enough.
So far, I have done 4,503 hours of recording on EX1 with various memory cards without a single card failure. It is not a question of winning an argument or telling one off..An interesting note, in late June '09, Sony headquarters in Japan purchased MxM with SanDisk and USB adapter. At the time I thought "oh yeah, they will do something with the new model... as in disable it" as it turned out, they improved it as mentioned earlier.

MxM Express


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Don Greening
Re: MxR adaptor problems for EX1
on Jan 19, 2010 at 8:00:31 pm

I always stay out of these conversations. But I read them.

- Don


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Craig Seeman
Re: MxR adaptor problems for EX1
on Jan 19, 2010 at 8:40:09 pm

[Marek Bilski] "There are a lot of customers who managed to buy very cheap Transcend and SanDisk, even from reputable companies which were fake, believing that they were original which obviously will cause huge problems because the firmware is really flakey.
2 reasons for media errors...
1. the memory card's firmware failure; and
2. internal components on the memory card not being durable enough.
So far, I have done 4,503 hours of recording on EX1 with various memory cards without a single card failure. It is not a question of winning an argument or telling one off..An interesting note, in late June '09, Sony headquarters in Japan purchased MxM with SanDisk and USB adapter. At the time I thought "oh yeah, they will do something with the new model... as in disable it" as it turned out, they improved it as mentioned earlier. "


I think the above info is critical to understanding "Sony think" on the subject (as inferred by me).
Sony had mention many months before the EX1 was released that they'd support "inexpensive" media. I heard this FIRST HAND from Sony.

Why I think Sony's position changed. Sony found they could not exercise quality control over the SDHC card manufacturers as well as such other issues as counterfeit cards. With that and the potential support issues the only sensible solution for them as a business was to "not officially support" it. That is not the same as saying it can't work or is unreliable. They used the very same technology for their external hard drive recorder, which they exercised control over. They did leave the door open to third parties (MXM for example) to undertake that.

Sony has no financial interest or motive in disabling that use given the market place. SXS cards, by their nature, would never be a big profit area for Sony. The typical user buys a couple of cards for the LIFETIME of the camera and would export and reload. It had NO POTENTIAL for mass use.

The EX series of cameras are probably dependent on MASS sales (much more so than the higher end cameras coming out of the "Pro" plant). Given that other camera manufacturers producing cameras in the same price class (JVC, Panasonic) using solid state, support SDHC, Sony was at risk of loosing significant sales to them because of the high cost of ownership of EX cameras (the SXS cards) and difficult end user maintenance (SXS drivers, express slot laptops, buying Sony SXS readers). Sony would rather lose the already small margins on SxS sales in order to sell MANY MORE EX cameras.

Hence the position that Sony took, IMPROVE support for SDHC but continue to hold the "not officially supported" position due to inability to control QC of the card manufacturers (who may aim for the much bigger photographer's market).

Of course as more video cameras move to SDHC and sales of such cameras increase, the SDHC card manufactures start to have an incentive to improve their higher class cards.

In my very personal opinion, other than the speed of copy from SXS, SDHC beats it every other way . . . as long as third parties like MXM test and inform us (as they do). And now with the improved USB support in the EX1R there's not longer even an overcrank limitation.





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Christopher Delaine
Re: MxR adaptor problems for EX1
on Jan 25, 2010 at 10:19:32 pm

How is this for Ironic.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/657501-REG/Sony_MEAD_MS01_MEAD_MS01_M...


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Ashley Hodson
Re: MxR adaptor problems for EX1
on Jan 31, 2010 at 3:54:07 pm

I've had a similar problem that I've suspected to be heat as well.
I'm using a Hoodman Raw adapter with Delkin Class 6 SDHC 16gig cards. I'm also using a Swit90 battery. After shooting for a full 3 hours of hand-held in 1080HQ 24p. Usually it's towards the end of a full card I'll get a 'media restore' error. If i shut the camera off, switch the adapter to a different slot, restore the media and keep recording, it solves the problem, even on the same card. But sure enough even if i switch cards and switch slots after the error, if my camera is hot enough, I'll get another media restore error. I strongly suspect the heat is an issue. When I pull the adapter out of the camera it's really hot to the touch.
Any ideas or suggestions would be most helpful. For now I'll try to switch slots between cards to give one a rest, or perhaps shoot with the door open?
Thanks,
Ashley


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John v.d. Putten
Re: MxR adaptor problems for EX1
on Sep 22, 2010 at 10:56:55 pm

Yesterday I recorded with the MxR adapter with a Hoodman SDHC 16gig card, after ten minutes I got a Media Restore message. I transferred the media to my mac, accept the last take. When insert the card back into the EX1, it was not recognised anymore... (Unknown Media (B) Please Change

This error appears after shooting one 8 gig SxS card, camera was on for about one hour.
I ordered it as a Hoodman kit, Express Card Reader, SDHC card and SDHC to USB adapter, but the Express Card Reader turned out to be the MxR. Don't know if that could cause the problem?

Any ideas?


John


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Ed Mellnik
Re: MxR adaptor problems for EX1
on Sep 22, 2010 at 11:04:06 pm

I have given up on figuring out what is at fault with these.
I started using Extreme HCSD cards and have not had a problem yet
with these... so I am thinking that it is a camera flaw.
I strongly suspect that the camera gets hot and the temperature
effects the write speed... and or corrupts files its writing.

EMA VIDEO
Portland Oregon
emellnik@emavideo.com


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