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Detail setting in Picture Profile Settings of EX1/EX3

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Tom David
Detail setting in Picture Profile Settings of EX1/EX3
on Oct 12, 2009 at 12:03:28 am

Hi guys, can anybody please elaborate briefly on their understanding of the DETAIL settings in the Picture Profile settings of the EX1/EX3? Closely looking at the picture it appears to sharpen the image when turned on, and when turned off again, leaves a softer image (much like a silk stocking effect?)

I usually shoot with a profile created by a chap called Bill Raverns with a Letus Ultimate unit. However recently shot a TVC using just the default Picture Profile setting. I found myself tearing my hair out because the focus seemed soft and I was trying to re-calibrate the lens adaptor like a crazy man, but when I switched back on the DETAIL setting (by accident), the image was sharp as I expected.

What is the camera doing to the image when turned on, and when left off, I can't seem to sharpen the image back in post... So just wondering what the point of turning it off would ever be?

Cheers,
Tom

Camera Operator - Editor - Motion Graphics
(http://www.tomdavid.com.au)


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Bill Ravens
Re: Detail setting in Picture Profile Settings of EX1/EX3
on Oct 12, 2009 at 4:37:33 pm

The EX1 applies some level of sharpening, even when the Detail setting is turned on and the level is set to zero. If you want the equivalent to turning Detail to 'off', you must set the Level to -40.

In other words, if you want more sharpening than "off', but less than the default setting, turn the Detail to on, and set something like Level=-20. You can also play with thef requency setting. Try something like Detail =-15 and frequency=44



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Craig Seeman
Re: Detail setting in Picture Profile Settings of EX1/EX3
on Oct 12, 2009 at 5:00:07 pm

Bill maybe there's a source for more info on this.
Detail I believe is just the EDGE sharpening so you could turn this down and while the edges soften, the whole image (resolution) should not look softer.
I forget exactly what frequency does but it might have impact on the radius of the edge or maybe that softens the entire image. I'm not sure.



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Bill Ravens
Re: Detail setting in Picture Profile Settings of EX1/EX3
on Oct 12, 2009 at 5:18:00 pm

Craig...
Frequency affects the "ringing" that occurs near the edges. Edge sharpening, as that influenced by the Detail setting has strange effects when applied to mpeg compression. My own preferences are for detail set to off.



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Craig Seeman
Re: Detail setting in Picture Profile Settings of EX1/EX3
on Oct 12, 2009 at 5:27:36 pm

Thanks for that. The OP mentioned that turning it off resulted in what he thought was a "silk stocking" effect. I can't imagine that myself unless one is used to the edge sharpening. In addition, detail is primarily impacting the edge (plus size of "ring") so the image should not be softening at all beyond the edge.



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cowcowcowcow
George Griswold
Re: Detail setting in Picture Profile Settings of EX1/EX3
on Oct 13, 2009 at 12:21:27 pm

Tom and group,

I saw this post and this is an area that I had been putting off because of the spotty documentation. This spurred me to dig in and read all the Sony literature, watch NAB seminars, etc. In this post I will list and define the Detail settings as I understand them from my research.

Tests were done with a Chroma Du Monde 24 chart with resolution wedges (not the best DSC rez chart, but a start), an ISO 12233 rez chart viewed on 17" Panasonic LH1700 LCD monitor. Would have nice to have a HD CRT, but 99.9% of the world will see the pictures on plasma or lcd.... after several steps in between. Given the steps that these images go through before they are viewed I think it is best to go easy on detail enhancement... a little will help the pictures "pop", but too much will degrade the image really fast when it is compressed, transcoded, or otherwise trampled on.

Detail is a visual trick basically that adds an "outline" between any dark and light boundary in the video frame. The detail parameters control the strength, width, and other modifications of the detail circuits.

LEVEL Increasing this value raises the detail level. + is more. Easy.

FREQUENCY This controls the width of the detail effect. Lower value is a fatter line when detail is added. Higher value is a thinner line. Don't go too low on this setting because odd things can happen when the width approaches the resolution of the image-- can cause problems especially in the vertical detail.

CRISP Noise suppression level. Higher value reduces fine detailing and can reduce noise. Lower value allows detail to be applied to finer picture elements and can increase noise. I have tried several resolution targets and the effect of this adjustment is minimal from what I have seen.

H/V RATIO Ratio of the amount of detail applied to H lines vs. V lines. Higher value increases the V detail in relation to H. Lower value increases H detail in relation to V. My tests show that a negative value here is desirable. Excessive V detail can cause problems in encoding down the production chain. Also, excessive V Detail can cause interline twitter on some displays (esp. CRT).

WHITE/BLACK LIMIT Limits the amount of detail applied to bright and dark objects. Again in my tests so far I did not see an effect. For now I am going with zero.

Right now I have settled on these settings as a nice middle ground of enhancement versus purity:

LEVEL -20
FREQ +30
CRISP +40
H/V -45

W/B LIMIT 0 (under investigation)




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Tom David
Re: Detail setting in Picture Profile Settings of EX1/EX3
on Oct 14, 2009 at 5:58:38 am

This is very thorough, thankyou. I will certainly have a look at this for myself.

Cheers,
Tom

Camera Operator - Editor - Motion Graphics
(http://www.tomdavid.com.au)


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Rafael Amador
Re: Detail setting in Picture Profile Settings of EX1/EX3
on Oct 15, 2009 at 4:11:26 pm

In the end of this page there few interesting notes regarding Detail;

http://www.cinematography.net/edited-pages/hd_to_35mm.htm
Rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Bob Hayes
Re: Detail setting in Picture Profile Settings of EX1/EX3
on Dec 15, 2009 at 12:48:39 pm

I own an EX1 and I am still trying to figure out where to set my detail. Currently I am running it at

DETAIL On
Level -15
Frequency 30
CRISPENING -45
H/V RATIO 0
WHITE LIMITER 0
BLACK LIMITER 0
V DTL CREATION y
KNEE APT LEVEL 0

It seems to look good but it is more a result of reading then testing. I am using Panasonic 17" and 9" monitors with a Leader Waveform and Vector scope. My questions are.

How do you set your monitors up to view detail.
How do you test the detail. What am I looking at on a test chart.

The footage cuts in with VariCam footage.


Bob Hayes
DP
Los Angeles


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