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Example of EX1 HD-SDI output versus SxS cards

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aemilia scott
Example of EX1 HD-SDI output versus SxS cards
on Jul 18, 2009 at 9:11:50 pm

Hi everyone,

I have a PMW EX1, from which I've been recording onto the cards at 4:2:0. I'm thinking of making the leap to an HD-SDI output style workflow, using the Decklink Extreme and a RAID array. Two questions for someone anyone using this type of workflow:

1) for 35mbs, 24p output, what size RAID array am I realistically going to need to handle the uncompressed footage? 4? 8?

2) does anyone have any side-by-side examples of SxS-captured footage versus HD-SDI captured footage? I understand I'm getting a bigger color space, but I'd love to see it in action so I can really come to jesus and fork over the 1500 bucks it's going to take to do this.

Cheers,
Aemilia Scott

--------------
http://www.aemiliascott.com


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Rafael Amador
Re: Example of EX1 HD-SDI output versus SxS cards
on Jul 18, 2009 at 10:00:02 pm

From your HDSI out you get 10b Uncompress 422, while in the SxS card you get MPEG-2 Long GOP 8b 420.
The difference is simply HUGE.
More or less like comparing BetacamDigital with MiniDV.
rafael

http://www.nagavideo.com


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Noah Kadner
Re: Example of EX1 HD-SDI output versus SxS cards
on Jul 19, 2009 at 12:01:36 am

Yeah but who wants to lug around an HD-SDI capture card tethered to a computer? Instead, I heartily recommend the AJA Ki Pro, which lets you shoot HD-SDI right to ProRes and bypass Sony's (excellent in my opinion btw) compression completely.

http://www.aja.com/products/ki-pro/

Noah

Writing RED: The Ultimate Guide to Using the Revolutionary Camera!. Unlock the secrets of the DVX100, HVX200 and Apple Color.
Now featuring the Lens Adapter Guidebook, Sony EX1 Guidebook,
DVD Studio Pro and How to Light Interviews.
http://www.callboxlive.com


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aemilia scott
Re: Example of EX1 HD-SDI output versus SxS cards
on Jul 19, 2009 at 12:18:44 am

Thanks for the input.

It looks like that Ki-Pro is going to run me around 4000 bucks, maybe not including storage, right? That looks like a great product, but might be too rich for my blood at this point. Apple's ProRes 422 sounds like a great codec, but it's a codec nonetheless. Might there be an advantage to that uncompressed 10 bit footage in the long run?

I'd still love to see something like a side-by-side comparison of SxS acquired footage and HD-SDI acquired footage.

Cheers,
Aemilia

----------------------
http://www.aemiliascott.com


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David Issko
Re: Example of EX1 HD-SDI output versus SxS cards
on Jul 20, 2009 at 12:47:02 pm

Check out Convergent Design's website. They have the nanoFlash, which has just started shipping. Records straight out of the HDSDI output onto Compact Flash cards in 35Mbs @420 plus an array of higher rates at 422. Looking forward to mine arriving soon. Will sit on the rear shoe of my EX3.



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Rafael Amador
Re: Example of EX1 HD-SDI output versus SxS cards
on Jul 19, 2009 at 8:20:45 am

[Noah Kadner] "Instead, I heartily recommend the AJA Ki Pro, which lets you shoot HD-SDI right to ProRes and bypass Sony's (excellent in my opinion btw) compression completely. "
The Ki Pro is not a a portable gear. You can not carry it in your camera bag just as the NANO.
Cheers,
rafael
PS: If I could design my own codec for recording out of the HD/SDI, it would be hybrid 422 10b Y'/8b Cb'-C'r



http://www.nagavideo.com


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Tim Kolb
Re: Example of EX1 HD-SDI output versus SxS cards
on Jul 19, 2009 at 2:41:43 am

There's no question that ingesting HDSDI from the camera would be of higher image quality vs ingesting the recorded MPEG material (of course we're not talking about recording to the SxS cards and then outputting through the SDI port...we're talking about bypassing the codec entirely).

However, we are talking about a lot of bandwidth for uncompressed. ProRes is certainly compressed, but it is very high quality. Unless you are doing a considerable amount of compositing or effects, uncompressed is getting harder to justify in any but the highest end applications.






TimK,
Director, Consultant
Kolb Productions,


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Ramy Elkays
Re: Example of EX1 HD-SDI output versus SxS cards
on Jul 31, 2009 at 6:52:21 pm

Portable recording devices like the nanoFlash do record with some form of compression. The best for this device is called "Master Quality" and allows I-Frame Only : 160 Mbps 4:2:2 I-Frame Full-Raster; 1.24 GB/Min. Otherwise, it's mainly Long GOP recording. So, there's no such a thing called "uncompressed HD"...




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Tim Kolb
Re: Example of EX1 HD-SDI output versus SxS cards
on Jul 31, 2009 at 10:03:56 pm

[Ramy Elkays] "
Portable recording devices like the nanoFlash do record with some form of compression. The best for this device is called "Master Quality" and allows I-Frame Only : 160 Mbps 4:2:2 I-Frame Full-Raster; 1.24 GB/Min. Otherwise, it's mainly Long GOP recording. So, there's no such a thing called "uncompressed HD"..."


I suspect the highest quality image quality on that device would be long-GOP 4:2:2 100 Mbps. 160 Mbps I-frame actually loses some efficiency due to being completely I-frame. Long-GOP is not a cause for quality loss in itself...in comparable circumstances most codec guys will tell you that combining temporal compression with spatial compression can increase efficiency by more than 2x.

As far as uncompressed HD...sure there is. Uncompressed HD is just what it sounds like. Uncompressed high definition footage...it isn't even that rare. It huge and occupies a fairly massive data rate and is used in high end applications all the time. Acquiring uncompressed digital HD was only possible when Philips VooDoo D6 equipment was around...and even then, it wasn't really 'portable.'



TimK,
Director, Consultant
Kolb Productions,


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Ramy Elkays
Re: Example of EX1 HD-SDI output versus SxS cards
on Aug 1, 2009 at 7:46:47 am

Well, that's what I meant : we're mainly concerned today with HDCAM, AVCIntra and the like, which all use some level of compression when it comes to recording the video stream. Otherwise I found interesting your considerations about the efficiency of Long GOP vs. I-Frame recording. Does it mean that Sony's solutions are somehow better fit for the mainstream HD production than Panasonic ? And what about doing compositing in post ?



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Ken Ridge
Re: Example of EX1 HD-SDI output versus SxS cards
on Apr 20, 2011 at 12:02:38 am

What a difference a few years makes. Black Magic Design has a really cool product coming out for 400 bucks. Captures 422 Quicktime files directly to SSD drive (not included). I can't wait to try this, I own the SDHC adapter kits so I can shoot for hours but I really want to get the quaility of the video up for commercial work. The workflow they're advertising looks good but I'll probably transfer files from the SSD to my internal RAID for editing. Now I have wonder if my RAID can handle high bitrate video. Hopefully I won't be disapointed by the HD-SDI output from the EX1. I've never seen it before, I've struggled for years pulling keys from footage shot to the SxS cards.


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