FORUMS: list search recent posts

EX1 adjusting color

COW Forums : Sony XDCAM - EX & Related

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
Bob Hayes
EX1 adjusting color
on Jul 8, 2009 at 1:58:05 am

I just bought an EX1 and I am starting to learn how to use it. I decided to tech it and checked it with a DSC chart. I was surprised to see how far off the colors of the camera were straight out of the box. Our HVX 200 nailed the DSC boxes with out adjustment. Now I like the EX1 but I feel it will take a little work to maximize its look. Has anyone else found this an issue. My first pass at teching the camera to the DSC came out thusly.

MATRIX On
Select HiSat
Level 13 (The picture looked too saturated but this is what it took to get the colors in the boxes at 2x Gain on the vector scope)
Phase 12
R-G 79
R-B 6
G-R 22
G-B 34
B-R 30
B-G -28
COLOR CORRECTION
Setting Off
WHITE On
Offset A 2
PRESET WHITE 3200
DETAIL On
Level -40
Frequency 0
CRISPENING 15
GAMMA Level 0
Select Cine1
BLACK -3 (Set too low. I set the blacks at 0 and it should have been 5 IRE)
BLACK GAMMA 0
LOW KEY SAT 0




Return to posts index

Craig Seeman
Re: EX1 adjusting color
on Jul 8, 2009 at 12:16:16 pm

There is someone by the name of Bill Ravens who has done this too but I don't know if he visits the COW.



Return to posts index

Craig Seeman
Re: EX1 adjusting color
on Jul 8, 2009 at 12:19:22 pm

I did find Bill Ravens results though. He did this in January 2008 elsewhere:
________

First blush inspection of the EX1 color balance showed weak green/cyan and a fairly narrow dynamic range. The histogram filled only about 3/4 of the x axis and tended to be on the underexposure side of things. Granted, I don't have a 3 color histogram, so, this is really an approximation. My goal was to increase the dynamic range, improve the exposure without blowing the hi-lites and muddying the shadows. I, also, wanted to bring up the weak green/cyan.


EX1, HDRack, and a DSC Labs Camette chart v8.1. Here's my procedure and results:
1-Light DCS chart with 600w quartz halogen lamp
2-white balance the EX1- result of the WB=2700k
3-zoom EX1 onto 5-step gray chart on camette and look at the WFM.
4-adjust aperture so white step shows 100IRE
5-adjust black and black gamma so black step shows 0IRE.
6-adjust knee and gamma so middle gray sits at 50%IRE and all grey steps are evenly spaced
7-Now the hard part-zoom out to show the color bars on Camette. Turn on Picture profile mode and set MATRIX to ON.
8-adjust global and local phase angles to put all the color bursts within the vectorscope targets

Here's my results:
Matrix---------------------on
Select---------------------hisat
Level...............................0
Phase..............................+6
R-G................................+75
R-B................................0
G-R................................-18
G-B................................-23
B-R................................-33
B-G................................+11

Color Correction..............off
White.............................off
Detail.............................on
Detail Level.....................0
Detail Freq......................0
Skintone.........................off

Knee..............................on
Auto knee......................on
Point.............................90
Slope............................0
Knee SAT level...............50

Gamma Level.................0
Select...........................STD3
Black............................-15
Black gamma.................-9
Low key sat..................0

It would be great to have someone validate my results. I'll redo more fine tuning as I go on. For the time being, my latitude is increased above the factory settings, my saturation is more lifelike. The histogram now displays a range from near 0 to 100%. Peaks are well distributed over the range without favoring lows or hi's.

I'd be glad to post some frame grabs if a server was available.

Time to go test in the real world.
I hope this helps out.

I tried all the gamma presets. All the CINE presets really compress the dynamic range about 30-50% of the available range. I suppose you could boost the LEVEL, but, then, I think you're manually putting the gamma back in the STD preset



Return to posts index


Craig Seeman
Re: EX1 adjusting color
on Jul 8, 2009 at 12:23:41 pm

He later revised it to:
_________

I've reworked my original profile based on some feedback and observations I received. It was suggested I use a CINE profile for gamma, reds have been dialed down, black level was raised, slightly. Overall, this is an improvement, I really like this profile, altho' my test was quick. I've posted a framegrab, so the comparisons are here:

Matrix ...............on
Select................hisat
Level..................0
Phase.................-5
R-G...................75
R-B...................0
G-R...................-18
G-B...................-32
B-R...................-27
B-G...................13

Gamma Level..............-40
Gamma Select.............CINE1
Black..........................-12
Black Gamma..............0

Once again, please set your white balance before using. Let me have feedback on your use of the profile.




Return to posts index

Craig Seeman
Re: EX1 adjusting color
on Jul 8, 2009 at 12:26:53 pm

and then changed
____

Gamma Level.............. 0 (changed from -40)

You lose a little dynamic range, but, it takes less CCing in post. And selecting a CINE1, 3,or 4 setting, depending on how much black stretch you want/need.
I think part of the lesson, here, is that the color matrix settings are good for a truer color, however, the way Sony applies gamma curve settings is a learning process for me.
One thing about my old settings is that the auto iris tends to underexpose unless one manually adjusts the iris for 100% zebra. It seems to be equivalent to something less than 1/2 f/stop since adjusting the level in TLCS by +0.5 is too much. Light level effects things




Return to posts index

Bob Hayes
Re: EX1 adjusting color
on Jul 8, 2009 at 4:03:10 pm

Thanks

I should contact Bill for sure. His posts sort of got me thinking I was on the right path or at least the same path.



Return to posts index


cowcowcowcowcow
Bill Ravens
Re: EX1 adjusting color
on Jul 9, 2009 at 12:15:29 pm

Amazing to me that this has gotten the exposure it has gotten. With a lot more experience under my belt witht his cam, this profile still works well. Keep in mind that settings like DETAIL and BLACK LEVEL don't really effect the color balance like the MATRIX adjustment does. Tweaking BLACK LEVEL is really based on the scene being shot. If you lower the shadows to near pure black(RGB 16 or less) the scene lighting needs to be carefully controlled so the shadows aren't crushed(like an indoor performance). If you're shooting outside, raise the BLACK LEVELS back up to give yourself a little headroom, aka wiggleroom, for uncontrolled variations more than 11 stops.

On the subject of dynamic range, I use Cine1 for outside under direct sunlight, Cine 3 for outside with filtered light(cloudy day) and cine 4 for indoors. If you happen to prefer the Standard settings, I tend to avoid Std1, altogether and always turn off AUTOKNEE.



Return to posts index

Bob Hayes
Re: EX1 adjusting color
on Jul 9, 2009 at 1:35:58 pm

Bill

Just the man I was hoping to connect with. No one seems that interested in the color of these cameras as opposed to the Panasonic community which is obsessed with color. My current goal is to create a standard color look for the camera which looks great and is flexible. I also plan to create some specific looks down the line.

I am continuing to play with the camera. My newest setting is:

EX1 7/8/09

Name Bob Hayes - Bobnorm

MATRIX On

Select HiSat
Level -21
Phase 3
R-G 79
R-B 41
G-R 39
G-B 36
B-R 24
B-G 68

COLOR CORRECTION
Setting Off
WHITE On
Offset A 0
Offset B 0
PRESET WHITE 3200
DETAIL On
Level -40
Frequency 0
CRISPENING 15
GAMMA Level 0
Select Cine1
BLACK -3
BLACK GAMMA 0
LOW KEY SAT 0



I have included a Leader Capture to give you an idea of where I am at. I would like to get the green and cyan 15% stronger and the green phased to cyan more. I would be surprised if these numbers track from camera to camera.






Return to posts index

Bill Ravens
Re: EX1 adjusting color
on Jul 9, 2009 at 1:54:14 pm

Bob I tried to do the same thing a while back. The best I could do was by turning the Color Correction ON and boosting the Green. My attempts were mildly successful, not nearly as good as the first cut, tho'.
here's those settings:
Level: ………………………..0
Phase:…………………… -29
R-G: ………………………+31
R-B: ………………………48
G-R:……………………….. -2
G-B: ……………………….-32
B-R: ……………………..-38
B-G:……………………. +4
Color Correction………… ON
Target Phase:…………….. 274
Target Width: …………….0
Level: ……………………91
Phase:………………… -18
Knee SAT ……………….50
Gamma Level: ……………0



Return to posts index


Bob Hayes
Re: EX1 adjusting color
on Jul 9, 2009 at 2:17:35 pm

LOL. Sort of my results. I do like the idea of using the color correction as a limited matrix. When I tried to adjust the green the cyan section got truncated and since I couldn't really see a difference I felt it was better not to tie up the Color correction in my overall look. I usually keep the green and cyan color saturation down as opposed to the other colors.







Return to posts index

Rafael Amador
Re: EX1 adjusting color
on Jul 10, 2009 at 4:39:00 pm

Hi Bill,
Great to have you around.
I've been trying many PPs that I found in Internet (Phillips Bloom, Douglas, Bass Pigs,..)
I worked for a while with which I think was your first PP.
I found too the Blacks a bit to low and the Reds just a bit too strong.
However this was very easy to correct in Color.
I will try now with the modifications you have done.
Many times I don't know how the footage will be used, so I need a PP that gives me a picture the most natural possible while using the most of the dynamic range that the camera allows.
Bob complains that haven't been many discussions about PP's in this forum. He is right. This thread is the best example: Only four people posting.
But to discuss properly about PPs, I think is necessary a deep technical knowledge that I believe that most of the cameramen (at least my self) we don't have it. Hope nobody get angry with me for this what I say.
Cheers,
rafael



http://www.nagavideo.com


Return to posts index

Bob Hayes
Re: EX1 adjusting color
on Jul 10, 2009 at 6:17:12 pm

Rafael

Great to have you on board. I wish there was a lot of discussion here. Even it is just people screwing around and posting pictures and results. With out vector scope, waveform monitor, and the knowledge to use them it is difficult to document repeatable results. But just by screwing around with the cameras and trying to achieve looks we can learn a lot. Sometimes those of us with our heads jammed in a scope loose track for the end results. I’d encourage anyone regardless of their skill level to share. But also be aware that we who appear more knowledgeable are just screwing around also. So experiment and test but be careful when doing it on real life projects.

Bob Hayes



Return to posts index


Bill Ravens
Re: EX1 adjusting color
on Jul 11, 2009 at 12:28:38 pm

Hi Rafael...

Dynamic range is a rather curious topic when it comes to the EX1. The dynamic range of the EX1 is rather variable depending on a number of items. For example, selecting a gain value of -3dB will limit the super-white values recorded by the EX1 to 103%, as opposed to 109% IRE when the gain is set to 0 dB. Furthermore, the CINE gamma settings use a knee in the highlights to roll off the highlights, rather than truncate them, providing more data in the brighter regions of the image. I've found Cine1 to yield about 11 stops of range. Cine4 will yield a larger range, perhaps as much as 12 stops, however, this is done by rolling the gamma knee off sooner, resulting in low contrast thru mid to upper highlight values. For this reason, I tend to avoid Cine4 for bright outside scenes and use it, primarily, for indoor scenes where the contrast is not as high. Cine2, of course, will limit IRE values to no more than 100%. All other gamma presets demand some post processing to bring the illegal values of super-whites back into legal range, but, the advantage is increased highlight detail.

My point is, high dynamic range isn't the holy grail of shooting performance. If you don't intend to color grade in post, then one is obligated to use Cine2.



Return to posts index

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
© 2017 CreativeCOW.net All Rights Reserved
[TOP]