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Whats a good reason to keep Bpav folders after exporting to MXF?

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Frank Manno
Whats a good reason to keep Bpav folders after exporting to MXF?
on Jan 30, 2009 at 2:38:37 pm

I'm fairly new to all this card stuff.

After using Clip Browser to convert to MXF, can anyone give me any good reason to keep the Bpav folder structure?

Why would I ever need/want it since I have the MXF files?


-Frankie


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Craig Seeman
Re: Whats a good reason to keep Bpav folders after exporting to MXF?
on Jan 30, 2009 at 2:47:23 pm

[Frank Manno] "Why would I ever need/want it since I have the MXF files?
"


Because not all NLEs and programs can use MXF.
The MP4 can be rewrapped to MXF, MOV or use as is depending on the program. Hand that MXF to a client or other post production facility that can't handle that file and they will curse you. Don't make someone else's work harder or they actually may have the right to bill you for the hardship.

The BPAV are your camera masters and that's the beginning and end of it.

I've never heard anyone in this business say "Why would I ever need the camera masters (certain news outlets as the exception)?" so I really can't fathom why anyone would think different about the BPAV.



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Michael Palmer
Re: Whats a good reason to keep Bpav folders after exporting to MXF?
on Jan 30, 2009 at 3:01:47 pm

Card Stuff?, I think of it as media management, and from here out you will need to keep a close eye on these files that most likely will live on a hard drive (or two to protect yourself).

We have seen many people with issues with converted media. It is a good idea to archive the original files as you may need to work on a different platform later at the clients request. If these files came off a tape and captured to MXF I'm sure you wouldn't trash the tape after capture. With the price dropping on SDHC media cards you may consider this as your tape. Search MxR/SDHC, this is a good solution.

Good Luck
Michael Palmer


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Clint Fleckenstein
Re: Whats a good reason to keep Bpav folders after exporting to MXF?
on Jan 30, 2009 at 3:34:02 pm

It really is a mindset issue. Think of that BPAV folder as a tape, pure and simple. The benefit of this "tape" is that you don't have to have a certain model/format of "deck" to play it back or "dub" it to a format needed for delivery. Instead of renting a Digitbeta deck to play back the footage you shot or transfer to DVCPRO HD, for instance, you just load the XDCAM Transfer app and rewrap your BPAV folder's files to what you, your editor, or your client require.

There was a long thread a while back from a guy who was given files made from someone's BPAV folder in a format he couldn't use (I forget which it was, MOV or MXF). If the person providing the raw footage trashed the raw camera files after exporting, they're in trouble. If they archived them properly, they can simply export the clips in the format required for edit.

Suppose a magical third flavor besides MOV or MXF comes out someday, one that becomes the preferred edit standard...Sony needs only to update its XDCAM Transfer app, and EX users with properly archived BPAV folders will be able to use it to rewrap their camera raw files to that format as well. I'm probably oversimplifying, but I want to illustrate that keeping the raw camera files is the best way to prepare for unexpected developments.

Another loose comparison might be made to still cameras. Do you throw away your digital camera's RAW files after converting to TIFF or JPEG? Heck, no. In that case, of course, there's an additional image processing factor to consider, but the general idea is the flexibility you get from keeping the files generated by the camera.

It's easy to fall into the trap of throwing one's tape-based habits in the trash bin once those shiny new cards show up, but I think that proper archiving and housekeeping habits can translate across the board, whether shooting film, card, or tape.

Cf


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Don Greening
Re: Whats a good reason to keep Bpav folders after exporting to MXF?
on Jan 30, 2009 at 4:21:44 pm

[Frank Manno] "Why would I ever need/want it since I have the MXF files? "

When you were shooting tape did you toss them in the garbage after capturing what you needed to your computer or did you throw them in a box to collect dust?

Your answer will tell you what to do about the BPAV folders after you're done importing what you want from them, because these folders are the new video tape.

- Don



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Noah Kadner
Re: Whats a good reason to keep Bpav folders after exporting to MXF?
on Jan 30, 2009 at 4:28:40 pm

Or would you shoot film and then toss away the negatives after you got prints? Keep the BPAV- surely a few extra hard drives is nothing next to the costs of god forbid reshooting something from scratch.

Noah

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Michael Slowe
Re: Whats a good reason to keep Bpav folders after exporting to MXF?
on Jan 31, 2009 at 8:26:25 pm

Whilst quite a few of you experts have put the poster right about trashing camera original media files my questions centre on how to store the finished production. I confess that I never kept original tapes after a project was edited and mastered (to tape) but I guarded my tape masters like gold dust. It was Craig I think who said tape was finished and of course in the long run he is right. That being so what do we master to? Drives can't be as safe as tape surely. DVD's currently MPEG2, can't compare with tape for quality and we don't yet know their longevity. Blu-Ray seems to me the answer as far as quality goes but although Toast version 9 can burn them what spftware encodes them?

Michael Slowe


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Craig Seeman
Re: Whats a good reason to keep Bpav folders after exporting to MXF?
on Jan 31, 2009 at 9:05:30 pm

[Michael Slowe] "DVD's currently MPEG2, can't compare with tape for quality"

DVD is a medium. MPEG2 is a codec. You can store any file you'd like on a DVD. If your master is under 4.3GB in its native codec that's fine. 7.95GB can go to DVD-DL. Blu-ray if around 23GB or 50GB (actual size a bit smaller). Once Sony provides the firmware update to their XDCAM Disc system you'll be able to use that for file storage to their full capacity and those will have a very long lifespan.

[Michael Slowe] "Blu-Ray seems to me the answer as far as quality goes but although Toast version 9 can burn them what spftware encodes them?
"


You do NOT want to encode. Use the discs to store the master file.
We have a plethora of backup means today. At some point all media "ages" and one will have to move the file to a new media format. NEVER ENCODE. NEVER DEGRADE YOUR MASTER. NEVER EVER.





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Michael Slowe
Re: Whats a good reason to keep Bpav folders after exporting to MXF?
on Jan 31, 2009 at 9:34:35 pm

Craig, I rather muddled my message but what I was trying to learn was what to actually exhibit (distribute) a film on in addition to archiving. If, as you state, tape is going I was complaining that SD DVD's are a poor second in quality. Blu-Ray must eventually be the answer if only we could encode them. I appreciate that files can be stored on Blu-Ray but you can't feed files into a projector or even HD TV can you?

Michael Slowe


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Don Greening
Re: Whats a good reason to keep Bpav folders after exporting to MXF?
on Jan 31, 2009 at 11:02:48 pm

[Michael Slowe] "I appreciate that files can be stored on Blu-Ray but you can't feed files into a projector or even HD TV can you?"

No you can't, and if you were able to then you would have done your archiving improperly. What we're all suggesting is a backup of your native EX files to alternate mediums such as Blu-ray or XDCAM disc. With programs like Toast® 10 it's never been easier to backup to Blu-ray media. When you consider that dual layer BD-R discs will hold an advertised 50 Gbytes of data it makes sense to at least give it some thought.

As has been pointed out already, backing up data, and in this case EX video files, you simply copy the files to your backup medium. It's just a drag and drop thing. There is no encoding to another format such as an MPEG2 or H.264 video stream that you can view with a Blu-ray player. To do so defeats the whole purpose of backing up original format files.

- Don



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Michael Slowe
Re: Whats a good reason to keep Bpav folders after exporting to MXF?
on Feb 1, 2009 at 11:10:28 am

Yes but Don, as I explained to Craig, I am primarily concerned as to how our finished projects are actually exhibited (shown). We go to a great deal of trouble and expense to get super picture quality and then it's destroyed by the MPEG2 compression, unless it goes out through the latest upscaling players and super projectors. It's all very well archiving the original media and even our master edits but what about the audience view? That's where I'm hoping Blu-Ray comes to the rescue.

Michael Slowe


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Don Greening
Re: Whats a good reason to keep Bpav folders after exporting to MXF?
on Feb 1, 2009 at 4:37:55 pm

For us Blu-ray will be the easiest way to get our HD content out to the most clients. If a customer is asking about HD now and wants their project finished in HD you can bet that they're thinking Blu-ray because that's the only game in town as far as today's consumer knows.

We'll be doing the Final Cut Pro - Compressor - Roxio Toast with Blu-Ray plug in route starting this year. If it wasn't for buying other equipment that was more pressing we would already have a Blu-ray burner and starting our tests.

Up 'till now we've been supplying the odd client with H.264 HD versions of their project just to give them a "gift with purchase". These files have been copied to their own computer so they can show their clients.

- Don


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Craig Seeman
Re: Whats a good reason to keep Bpav folders after exporting to MXF?
on Feb 1, 2009 at 6:01:41 pm

I think HD delivery is in a state of flux depending on who you're delivering to.

Blu-ray is one method assuming the client has a player or is motivated to buy one.

File on disk (not authored) is another. One can certainly copy the file to a laptop and send the laptop to a projector. There are businesses that find WMV HD very portable (they're using it for presentation not handouts). Certainly H.264 works in this regard and provides better quality. A master file can be kept on a server for access as needed.

Another method is online services. YouTube now displays 720p (as does Vimeo and ExposureRoom just to name a few). While businesses might not be using those specifically there are professional services that provide this. It's very easy to take that video and send it to HDTV or projector. Call up the web page play full screen and send out DVI to HDTV or projector. With data rates in the 2000-4000kbps range it looks "pretty good." Certainly faster is possible. My own internet download ranges from 25,000 to 30,000kbps.

Certainly each of the above has advantages and drawbacks but I've seen each of them used for professional delivery. The latter two do methods do not require the client to buy a Blu-ray player. One requires a laptop and codec compatible player. The other a very fast internet connection. In many cases the client may have those and prefer them to a physical disk.

While I can't speak for the current market metrics there are some things to think about. The number of households/businesses with HDTV (probably around 50% in North America). Blu-ray penetration (much lower), Broadband penetration (5000kbps and faster download). While I can't say for sure, I wouldn't be surprised if the number of Blu-ray players vs the access to 5000kbps or faster download is comparable. Certainly the number of laptops capable of playing WMV HD or H.264 exceeds that of Blu-ray players.

The more I think about it the more I agree with Steve Jobs' assessment that Blu-ray is a "bag of hurt." That would probably warrant another thread specific to HD client delivery. There's no "right" answer other than can you deliver what your client asks for. I can say it's EASY for me to deliver to my current clients via file on online service. They don't need to buy anything beyond what they already own.



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Michael Slowe
Re: Whats a good reason to keep Bpav folders after exporting to MXF?
on Feb 1, 2009 at 7:15:45 pm

Yes but Don, what software will you use to encode the Blu-Ray DVD's? I have Toast version 9 which will burn them but how do I encode from my HD timeline (Media 100)? I use BitVice currently to do the job in SD, and very good it is but they aren't able to do Blu-Ray yet.

Michael Slowe


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Don Greening
Re: Whats a good reason to keep Bpav folders after exporting to MXF?
on Feb 1, 2009 at 8:09:38 pm

Hi Michael,

I'll be using Apple's Compressor to encode for Blu-ray. Apple doesn't have anything that can actually burn Blu-ray discs yet but Compressor can encode for Blu-ray. You can't test drive a Blu-ray disc on an Apple computer yet, either. You need a set top Blu-ray player for that.

I have no idea how Media 100 works for exporting but if you can export your timeline as a self-contained movie then you can use Toast 9 or the new v.10 to encode your project to either of the two Blu-ray formats: MPEG2 or H.264.

- Don


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Frank Manno
Re: Whats a good reason to keep Bpav folders after exporting to MXF?
on Feb 2, 2009 at 4:07:29 am

Ok here's a question:

I've never burnt a Blu Ray before but a friend of mine who shoots on an EX-1 and is doing some investigating is telling me that full HD plays back at 35 megabits per second and a blue ray will only encode to 25 megabits per second.

Is this true? Because if it is, what is the purpose of full HD if it can't be played back at full resolution by anyhing other than from a hard drive?

Please excuse if I got my facts wrong..


-Frankie (Original Poster)


>For us Blu-ray will be the easiest way to get our HD content out to >the most clients. If a customer is asking about HD now and wants >their project finished in HD you can bet that they're thinking Blu->ray because that's the only game in town as far as today's consumer >knows.


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Don Greening
Re: Whats a good reason to keep Bpav folders after exporting to MXF?
on Feb 2, 2009 at 5:24:15 am

[Frank Manno] "a friend of mine who shoots on an EX-1 and is doing some investigating is telling me that full HD plays back at 35 megabits per second and a blue ray will only encode to 25 megabits per second. "

Your friend is assuming that because the EX can record at 35 Mbits per second you'll lose something if Blu-ray is restricted to playing back @ 25 Mbits per second. Do I have this right? So what would your friend think if you were to tell him that some cameras record at a data rate of 50 Mbits per second. Would your friend assume that half of the resolution would be lost with a Blu-ray version of the footage? What about cameras like Panasonic that shoots DVCPRO HD with a data rate that exceeds 100 Mbits per second. Is 75% of that now vapor-ware once it's encoded to Blu-ray? The short answer is no because your friend is attempting to compare two different technologies.

Standard definition formats such as MiniDV (25 Mbits per second) and DVCPRO 50 (50 Mbits per second) have been encoded to DVD for years using MPEG2 bit rates as low as 3.5 - 8 Mbits per second with no appreciable loss in picture quality as long as a good encoder is being used and the operator knows how to use it.

The same rules apply for Blu-ray encoding.

- Don



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Frank Manno
Re: Whats a good reason to keep Bpav folders after exporting to MXF?
on Feb 2, 2009 at 6:16:10 am

Ok I get it.

So basically having said all this below, do you think there is any benefit in shooting in full HD rather than HDV if the final product is for Blu-Ray delivery?

(HDV's data rate is still higher than Blu-Ray)


Any benefits in shooting full HD over HDV if all you want to do is output to BluRay?



-Frankie



[Don Greening] "Your friend is assuming that because the EX can record at 35 Mbits per second you'll lose something if Blu-ray is restricted to playing back @ 25 Mbits per second. Do I have this right? So what would your friend think if you were to tell him that some cameras record at a data rate of 50 Mbits per second. Would your friend assume that half of the resolution would be lost with a Blu-ray version of the footage? What about cameras like Panasonic that shoots DVCPRO HD with a data rate that exceeds 100 Mbits per second. Is 75% of that now vapor-ware once it's encoded to Blu-ray? The short answer is no because your friend is attempting to compare two different technologies.

Standard definition formats such as MiniDV (25 Mbits per second) and DVCPRO 50 (50 Mbits per second) have been encoded to DVD for years using MPEG2 bit rates as low as 3.5 - 8 Mbits per second with no appreciable loss in picture quality as long as a good encoder is being used and the operator knows how to use it.

The same rules apply for Blu-ray encoding."




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Don Greening
Re: Whats a good reason to keep Bpav folders after exporting to MXF?
on Feb 2, 2009 at 7:16:58 am

In order to have the best Blu-ray encode you'll want to shoot the highest quality picture you can afford. In your case you have access to an EX with the 35 VBR HQ 1080 setting. I would use that.

- Don


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