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delivering for broadcast- looking for advice

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caleb crosby
delivering for broadcast- looking for advice
on Jan 24, 2009 at 11:47:20 pm

Hello,

I'm shooting (EX1 720/30p) and posting a broadcast tv hour every week right now and yeah my ass is kicked and it's only week 3. at least I have a single assistant to shoot and edit with!!

Question about output. i started outputting for the station onto a miniDV cam that went bad after the first week (just an old GL1 that started artifacting). last week i delivered on dvd and saw the results last night and am still feeling ashamed...

I plan to buy the cheapest miniDV cam at "best buy" ($169) believing that a digital format is a digital format, cam shouldn't matter for recording. but before buying I thought I'd run this by y'all to get a reading on what other people may be doing. I thought of exporting to SxS and dumping at tv station to tape, also thought of a canon HV-30 to record to through hdmi. Mini DV just sounds simple and fast. which sounds good ;-)

thanks for anything you can give me,
caleb crosby
portland me



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Craig Seeman
Re: delivering for broadcast- looking for advice
on Jan 25, 2009 at 12:44:48 am

miniDV ARGHHHHHHHHHH!

Sorry about that but I had to get that out of my system. Taking that nice pretty video and mashing it to heavily compressed miniDV breaks my heart.

Why not deliver an MPEG2 Program or Transport Stream?

BTW are they not broadcasting in HD yet?
If so you'd should be shooting either 1080i60 or 720p60 depending on what they need.



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caleb crosby
Re: delivering for broadcast- looking for advice
on Jan 25, 2009 at 1:29:39 am

Craig,

I'm with ya on the miniDV aftertaste! sorry mate. I was shooting S16 film until last year and TKing on Spirit! then I went with EX1 (and sold my XTR :-( I'm actually not all that sorry but that's another story..

No HD at station for local origination. They request to deliver on DVC. It's the CW, I think they are national, but this is just a regional show. I've tested mpeg program streams but it was awhile ago
for another workflow. if it's mpeg2 is it an advantage over a dvd?
would you think I'd just go to dvd as a QT file?

The station has a FCP suite but will charge me an hour to run from file to tape. They say they have to have tape!! I don't know why.
The best format to deliver as a file would be dvcpro50 pro rezz?

it's all so complex. I'm just a DP who can edit!!

Caleb Crosby






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Craig Seeman
Re: delivering for broadcast- looking for advice
on Jan 25, 2009 at 4:33:05 am

[caleb crosby] "if it's mpeg2 is it an advantage over a dvd? "
That might depend on the quality you can give them. I deliver spots at 18,000kbps and 4:2:2 color. DVD would be a much lower data rate (maybe 7000kbps) and 4:2:0.

[caleb crosby] "would you think I'd just go to dvd as a QT file?

The station has a FCP suite but will charge me an hour to run from file to tape. They say they have to have tape!! I don't know why. "


If going to tape, would DigiBeta be possible. QT is just a wrapper. Why not deliver Apple Pro Res (which is QT of course)? If pushed to go to tape they can output Apple Pro Res to DigiBeta and you should have a good looking Standard Def show.

What's their charge compared to going someplace else just for output or renting a DigiBeta deck yourself? If you need to cut costs a bit maybe BetaSP, which will still be better than MiniDV. Sure you could go DVPro50 too which would be better than miniDV.

While I've certainly experienced some stations accepting DV for spots I'm surprised to hear a broadcaster accepting DV for full hour programs.





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Michael Palmer
Re: delivering for broadcast- looking for advice
on Jan 25, 2009 at 5:08:21 am

Craig
I say he needs to save the few dollars on the cheap mini dv plan and buck up for the proper output.To make a quality production one needs to know what is best for the end output. DV isn't even close.




Good Luck
Michael Palmer


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Rafael Amador
Re: delivering for broadcast- looking for advice
on Jan 25, 2009 at 6:12:35 am

I agree with Craig. Going to tape, the minimum would be to go to DVCpro50 or BetacamSP.
Never MiniDV. Although you could have got something OK in DVD.

[caleb crosby] "if it's mpeg2 is it an advantage over a dvd?"
They are the same, but in the DVDs you have to limit the data rate. The MPEG-2 when is read from a computer can hold higher data rate.

Anyway I insist, with a DVD well done you can get very good quality. But to do that you first need to have a really good master and working with the EX-1 you should be mastering SD in ProRess.
Rafael


http://www.nagavideo.com


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caleb crosby
Re: delivering for broadcast- looking for advice
on Jan 27, 2009 at 3:57:26 am

Thanks guys,

The station has said sending as a QT file is now OK. (They have a file server but it's new.) but wait! If it is fed as a file (QT) (they are SD for local shows) is the below description anything like right? My instinct says I can feed them a higher rez file-

Here is the quote from Prod. Mngr at station:

>The show can be delivered to us as a DV/DVC Pro NTSC, progressive, >720x480, and this can be done right through the export of Final cut, >under quicktime conversion/options. If you need help with that, let me >know. Once delivered, I will also put it to tape for backup.

I would think I should send in as 8 bit uncompressed pro ress 720x480.
Or DVCPRO50.

Could this create transmission problems? I realize I have to meet their requirements, I just wanna send him what he needs and also something way better and ask him to try it.

Can people really understand this stuff?
Formats have exploded beyond all recognition!

Caleb



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Michael Palmer
Re: delivering for broadcast- looking for advice
on Jan 27, 2009 at 4:18:05 am

Send them the best file you can. 8 bit uncompressed is not going to give them any issues if they are in the tapeless world.

Good Luck
Michael Palmer


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Rafael Amador
Re: delivering for broadcast- looking for advice
on Jan 27, 2009 at 5:40:20 am

Hi Caleb,
If they can play the files from a server you have much more possibilities.
Don't hesitate and go to ProRess HQ. The quality is the same than Uncompress but much smaller files.
if you want reduce the file size, go to H264 keeping a high data rate.
Rafael




http://www.nagavideo.com


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Marvin Holdman
Re: delivering for broadcast- looking for advice
on Jan 28, 2009 at 2:34:37 am

Guys there is one thing you should know.....

Giving the station an mpeg stream might seem like a simple solution, and in theory it is, but in the real world it's going to go something like this;

Salesperson - Hey guys, someone just sent us an MPEG file and they said it could go straight to our playback server at the transmitter. Can we make that happen?

Production Person - Well, let's throw it on a timeline and see if we can get it to work. D'oh, my system doesn't recognize that flavor of MPEG. We'll just send it to control and see if they can deal with it.

Control - Hmmmm, mpeg. Was it made with our custom preset which conforms to every other file that is one our file server? No? Send it back.

Salesperson - We're sorry, but if you want it to play on our station we either need it on tape, or we'll have to charge you for the time it ties up our editing systems in order to make the conversion, IF we have that codec available.

The long and short of it is this. There is NO STANDARD FOR MPEG'S IN THE BROADCAST WORLD. It's getting better, but if you can't match EXACTLY the mpeg codec that is required for the equipment at the headend, the it is going to cause problems. Your best bet, for the immediate future is to provide a dub in whatever the station request. If you don't, plan on it taking more time to sort out the issues.

ASK YOUR STATION WHAT THEY PREFER. That's what you need to deliver. There may be better ways to do things, but most people in the business of broadcast embrace change VERY SLOWLY.

Just a thought from someone who has received their fair share of "mpeg streams" and has never seen two that were quite the same. There are MANY variations to the mpeg format. You won't be able to get it right without specific knowledge from the facility. If you're chummy with the head engineer, and they have the time (unlikely) then you might get it right after a couple of tries.




Marvin Holdman
Production Manager
Tourist Network
8317 Front Beach Rd, Suite 23
Panama City Beach, Fl
phone 850-234-2773 ext. 128
cell 850-585-9667
skype username - vidmarv


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Craig Seeman
Re: delivering for broadcast- looking for advice
on Jan 28, 2009 at 2:51:33 am

Speak to someone who knows and get the exact spec.

I deliver spots using DGFastchannel and they too have an specific specs. It's easy enough to do as long as you understand the specs. Two local cable companies kept asking me for BetaSP. After a series of bad dubs from a dub house I pressed the issue with sales people from (NOT techs for sure) at both systems. They both said DGFastchannel. They had NO IDEA that a "little shop" like me would understand something "complex" like an MPEG Program Stream so they never suggested it. It was something only the big regional and nationals used for delivery.

I'll bet if one were to press key folks at the station you'll likely find they use DGFastchannel or Pathfire. Otherwise you can get the specs they use and match them with the appropriate compression software. They'll keep saying tape because they have NO IDEA that you have the wherewithal to deliver program or transport streams.



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