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Marvin Holdman
EX-1 duplicate file names
on Jan 14, 2009 at 2:28:57 am

Hello All,

Today we saw a very peculiar anomaly that is somewhat troubling. I'm wondering if anyone else has seen this or can tell me why it might have occurred. Here's the long and short of it;

One of our shooters had seven folders from a days shoot that we were trying to "combine" into a single folder. We kept receiving a "duplicate filename" error that prevented us from accomplishing this. Upon further investigation, we found that two of the folders had 6 files that WERE THE SAME NAME! The camera's naming counter HAD NOT BEEN RESET. Both sets of files were unique video clips, recorded at different times of day on the same camera.

We have not seen this occur before, nor can we figure out how to duplicate it. We are initiating a media asset management system and have come up with a way to generate unique file names between several of our camera's using the alpha-numeric user generated prefix, but if the camera generates duplicate names, it will not be good.

Any insight is appreciated.

m


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Michael Palmer
Re: EX-1 duplicate file names
on Jan 14, 2009 at 3:45:06 am

"One of our shooters had seven folders from a days shoot that we were trying to "combine" into a single folder."

What does this mean? I hope this person realizes you can't combined BPAV folders together, BPAV folders need to be placed in a separate parent folder.

What did this shooter do to combined these files?

Good Luck
Michael Palmer


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Don Greening
Re: EX-1 duplicate file names
on Jan 14, 2009 at 5:44:26 am

Hi Marvin,

In addition to Michael's important advice, it's not possible to have the exact same clip name from 2 or more cameras because each camera's serial number is part of the clip naming convention. You can also further customize each camera's naming convention by inputting your own unique series of letters/numbers. Consult your camera's manual for instructions.

Never ever try to combine BPAV folders if that's what you were getting at from your description. As Michael has stated, each BPAV folder should be contained within another folder with a name of your choosing if you're copying the native BPAV folders to a hard drive. If you try to combine BPAV folders you're certainly going to get duplicate folder names within each one simply because of the way they're structured.

- Don


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Marvin Holdman
Re: EX-1 duplicate file names
on Jan 14, 2009 at 9:15:28 am

Sigh, guys..

I'm afraid you are both incorrect. If you use the EX-1 Clip Browser you CAN combine folders. We do it all the time. It is much easier to manage the media from a single shoot as a single folder vs multi folders. I realize you cannot combine folders WITHOUT the Clip Browser software, but that is not what we were talking about.

Don -

I'm using 1 camera, and yes, I know it's not SUPPOSED to generate the same file names, THAT'S my problem. We downloaded a card, re-inserted the card and it named the first 6 files the same as they were on the previous download.

BTW, I am talking about the EX-1 and it DOES NOT include ANY serial number information in the naming convention of the FILENAME. While the camera will arbitrarily assign the first four digits of the username, it IS user definable. The ONLY other part of the filename is a sequentially camera generated numeric filed. The user can ONLY reset this field to zero. Perhaps you are confusing this camera with another model??

The ONLY time a filename is duplicated is when it spans the two cards, in which case the Clip Browser software will consolidate that clip when you "combine" the folders. But this IS NOT the case with the anomaly I was describing.

BTW, as best we can tell, we are using version 1 of the firmware.


I guess no one else has seen this.

Marvin Holdman
Production Manager
Tourist Network
8317 Front Beach Rd, Suite 23
Panama City Beach, Fl
phone 850-234-2773 ext. 128
cell 850-585-9667
skype username - vidmarv


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Don Greening
Re: EX-1 duplicate file names
on Jan 14, 2009 at 5:13:44 pm

[Marvin Holdman] " If you use the EX-1 Clip Browser you CAN combine folders. We do it all the time."

Then why didn't you say so in the first place? On this forum we can only answer questions based on available information. If you don't provide pertinent information you're not going to get the answer you're looking for. Michael and I both assumed you were trying to combine BPAV folders manually.

[Marvin Holdman] "BTW, I am talking about the EX-1 and it DOES NOT include ANY serial number information in the naming convention of the FILENAME."

Really. Then someone must have already messed with your camera then. I've never altered the way my EX1 generates clip names and the last 3 numbers of my camera's serial number is part of every clip name e.g 1_480_0010_01 where 480 is the last 3 numbers of the serial.

- Don



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Marvin Holdman
Re: EX-1 duplicate file names
on Jan 14, 2009 at 6:13:28 pm

Hi Don,

Sorry for not mentioning using the clip browser to combine folders. My assumption that everyone knew this to be the only way to do this was, obviously, unfounded.

As for the camera generating filenames....

Our Ex-1 generates files names like this;

AD09_0000

The first four fields are user definable alpha numerics and the last four fields are camera generated sequential numerics. Our filenames do not look like yours at all. Is this a default setting?



Marvin Holdman
Production Manager
Tourist Network
8317 Front Beach Rd, Suite 23
Panama City Beach, Fl
phone 850-234-2773 ext. 128
cell 850-585-9667
skype username - vidmarv


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Marvin Holdman
Re: EX-1 duplicate file names
on Jan 14, 2009 at 6:17:40 pm

By the way, I spoke with Michael Palmer this morning....

What a pleasant and thoroughly enlightening discussion we had. While I've read these forums for years, and have always been impressed with everyone's willingness to share, this is the first time I've had a voice associated to a "cc's" persona. We are lucky to have such great folks here. At the end of the day, they are the ones that make this whole thing work.

Thank you Michael.

Marvin Holdman
Production Manager
Tourist Network
8317 Front Beach Rd, Suite 23
Panama City Beach, Fl
phone 850-234-2773 ext. 128
cell 850-585-9667
skype username - vidmarv


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Don Greening
Re: EX-1 duplicate file names
on Jan 14, 2009 at 6:25:26 pm

[Marvin Holdman] " Is this a default setting? "

Since I've never altered the way my EX1 generates filenames I would suspect that my EX's naming convention is the default protocol. BTW, perhaps if you used the "Reset All" function in your camera's menu it might solve your issue of the duplicate filenames. Back to square one, as it were. This is just a guess, since I've never had the issue come up. Might be a good place to start tho'.

- Don



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Marvin Holdman
Re: EX-1 duplicate file names
on Jan 14, 2009 at 10:50:49 pm

Thanks Don. Upcoming circumstance will necessitate a "default reset" so we'll see. The whole reason we had to become involved with file naming is that we are initiating an asset management system with several EX-1's and had to insure that there were no duplications of file names. I'm sure you can imagine the chaos that duplicate file names could bring to a relational database. It's a bad thing.

We think we've come up with a way to manage that, but this whole "camera creating duplicate names" thing is throwing a very mighty wrinkle in our plan. We've got the Sony folks on site tomorrow and I'm going to quiz them about this issue. If I find anything interesting out, I will report back here.

Thanks.

Marvin Holdman
Production Manager
Tourist Network
8317 Front Beach Rd, Suite 23
Panama City Beach, Fl
phone 850-234-2773 ext. 128
cell 850-585-9667
skype username - vidmarv


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Michael Slowe
Re: EX-1 duplicate file names
on Jan 15, 2009 at 11:28:22 am

Marvin, having read this thread with interest it has once again made me realise how good is the Vortex Media double DVD instructional workshop on the EX1. I have no connection with Vortex being some 3,000 miles away but their Doug Jensen does such a good job that I always advise new operators of this camera to view these discs, it's for pros not punters and he covers file naming in great detail in order to avoid your very problem. If you're employing cameramen give them a copy to take home and digest. I often re view it as I am reminded of some aspect of the camera that I have overlooked. It's not just the acquisition of footage but the post process as well that is covered in illuminating detail.

Others please note because many of the questions I see posted on this forum are brilliantly answered on this workshop. I can't understand why all the sellers of this camera don't give the DVD's with the camera, mine certainly did, and it was much to my advantage, and theirs, because I had no questions to subsequently plague them with!

Michael Slowe


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rene hazekamp
Re: EX-1 duplicate file names
on Jan 18, 2009 at 11:25:17 pm

I also had this file naming problem once and suddenly for no apperent reason. And I couldn't
figure out what it was and ever since I change the index (x245_000 to y245_000) whenever I change cards. (offcourse sometimes I forget to do this, but thusfar I was lucky enough to never get this duplication disaster again)

René Hazekamp

portfolio http://www.renehazekamp.com



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Marvin Holdman
Re: EX-1 duplicate file names
on Feb 13, 2009 at 4:18:13 pm

After speaking with Sony about this issue, here is their reply;

"None of the engineers I've spoken with have been able to reproduce the anomaly you reported, or think of what combination of events could have caused it.

If it happens again, please let us know as quickly as possible, and well see if there's any additional troubleshooting data that can be gathered."

Our hope, at this point, is to try and move away from Sony's software (ex clip browser) as quickly as possible. Currently, we are exporting our clips, via the clip browser, as "MXF for NLE" at which point we assign new names. From here, we are using a combination of Calibrated Software's MXF codec's and CatDV asset management software to database our files. This is working great so far. Greg, from Calibrated Software, is working on an MP4 codec that should allow us to manage our EX-1 footage natively and eliminate the need for Sony's software altogether.

Our hope is we will not have to retain the BPAV folder structure and will be able to simply remove the MP4 files and manage them like any other media. This would remove the need for the BPAV structure and it's restrictive file naming and handling conventions. I think we are just around the corner from being locked into Sony's somewhat disappointing software.

Simply being aware that our camera's MIGHT generate duplicate file names gives us the ability to deal with it, but it certainly doesn't take the stress levels DOWN knowing these camera's might just duplicate file names at any given point.

Hope this helps someone avoid disaster. This incident came to light when we "dubbed" some of our footage by dropping clips to a timeline only to discover (by the CLIENT!) that not all of the footage was transferred. We know what we shot, and when our client called us back and ask us, "where were those shots I ask for?" we went back, found them and realized that the simple act of grabbing all of our files and dropping them to the timeline, in one action, had omitted the files with duplicate names. Disturbing when you make an assumption that your gear performs a certain way and it acts exactly opposite.

Watch out folks, this has some pretty heinous implications.




Marvin Holdman
Production Manager
Tourist Network
8317 Front Beach Rd, Suite 23
Panama City Beach, Fl
phone 850-234-2773 ext. 128
cell 850-585-9667
skype username - vidmarv


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Randy Rogers
Re: EX-1 duplicate file names
on Mar 29, 2009 at 4:30:20 am

I've had this same problem happen twice with me now where I was shooting on one card which filled then it auto switched to the next card and continued the sequence along on the continuation file then switched back to the exact same numbers that the first card had started at ie it went from a continuation of file 0342_01 back to 0330_01. I couldn't combine the folders in the xd cam browser software because of the duplicate files. I would really like to know if and when this problem is identified as it messes up my storage of the original files in one folder as I've found no way to re-name them. Hopefully Sony or someone out there will come up with a solution to fix this in the future.


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Randy Rogers
Re: EX-1 duplicate file names
on Mar 29, 2009 at 5:01:59 am

After further research I think I may have discovered what triggers the abrupt switch back to original file names from the first card. I had a battery go down at just the same time that the file switched over, ie the file number was correct and continuous, my battery went dead and the file stopped and when I re-powered back up with the new battery that is when the files jumped back to the old numbers. I still don't know why the camera did it but I know for sure that is where the jump backwards took place so you may have had some kind of similar power disruption with your shoot as well.


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Marvin Holdman
Re: EX-1 duplicate file names
on Mar 30, 2009 at 1:05:35 pm

Hi Randy,

I'll ask the shooter if he remembers changing batteries around this time. This never came up in our discussions with Sony regarding this issue. I will pass along your information. So far, Sony has no idea how this is happening. Since this posting, I've had one other person call me and tell me they have encountered the same problem. Very troubling.

Marvin Holdman
Production Manager
Tourist Network
8317 Front Beach Rd, Suite 23
Panama City Beach, Fl
phone 850-234-2773 ext. 128
cell 850-585-9667
skype username - vidmarv


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Alex Rappoport
Re: EX-1 duplicate file names
on May 26, 2011 at 2:00:02 am

I've just learned that my EX-1 footage from two consecutive days of shooting on an HBO job suffer from this random backtracking of clip numbers. I'm glad I decided to look here before calling Sony about it.

Sadly, the earlier theory that a firmware updated will solve the problem doesn't seem to be the case. I'm running v1.25 and have been for about six or eight months after a Sony servicing. Indeed, the earlier firmware worked just fine, so in my case it's the upgrade that seems to carry the problem.

I concur with the theory that a dead battery can cause this problem, but I have a new theory, which has to do with switching card slots too quickly!

I don't like to let clips run over from one card to another, so I briefly pause the roll and then switch slots and start recording again. Often very quickly! But I recall that when you push the card slot button there is a period of a few seconds when the light on the camera hasn't exactly reset to green on whichever slot has been toggled. Perhaps the result is identical to the power failure glitch in re clip numbers?

Just throwing it out there. This is a big problem!

I see that no one has written on this thread for quite a while - wonder if there's been a solution I should know about.

A.R.



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Michael Palmer
Re: EX-1 duplicate file names
on May 26, 2011 at 2:20:55 pm

I can tell you first hand that if a battery dies during a recording you can encounter duplicate clip number, just last week I had an F3 battery die with my b-cam operator and missed a shot an it was at that point I realized the duplicate clip numbers. After replacing the battery the operator didn't restore the media as prompted by the camera and switch card slots to continue shooting. We were in different locations and he had never encountered a restore media before.


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Vince Tennant
Re: EX-1 duplicate file names
on Dec 30, 2011 at 5:41:20 pm

I've been having this problem as well, multiple times on different hardware. Batteries are never the culprit as in our case we run everything off AC power.

I have this issue on material shot in Los Angeles using my own cameras and have experienced it again a few weeks later shooting on rental cameras in Chicago.

An example would be in my folders from Chicago, I have two clips named 216_0017 that were shot hours apart:

216_0017 Duration 00:29:25:28 (07:01:16 - 07:30:42)
216_0017 Duration 01:10:53:14 (10:53:13 - 12:04:07)

I used to be able to rely on my media folders being able to be combined down to tidy single folders per shooter (which is critical cause these are 8-10 camera shoots), but all of a sudden I'm getting dupes.

Looks like it's been happening for years and there are still no real answers. I'm going to try to make a backup copy of one of the clips and see if I can manually edit the metadata files and retag the clip info...


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Vince Tennant
Re: EX-1 duplicate file names
on Dec 30, 2011 at 6:16:50 pm

I was able to manually edit the folders, file names, directory structure and contents of XML and SMI files and fool it into thinking the clip is called 216_0022.

Going to write a little script to do it for me as needed.

\V


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John Hennessy
Re: EX-1 duplicate file names
on Feb 4, 2012 at 4:11:44 pm

Well this looks like it's not that rare an anomaly. We've had out EX1 for a few years now, and once or twice noticed a few shots having duplicate names. We're working on a doc at the minute that has a lot of shooting spread over a few days and it's become apparent that this duplicate naming happens more frequently than we thought; in fact it's happening every couple of cards or so.

It didn't stand out so much because we usually 'copy' clips in the XDCAM Clip Browser, in this case the browser steps in and renames the duplicated names adding a (1) at the end. However if we choose to 'cut'/move the clips onto the HDD, the browser doesn't rename & tells us the clip already exists. The simple workaround seems to let the Clip Browser rename it during the move, but this is certainly something we need to sort out long term, and could prove very troublesome.

In answer to other speculation, it doesn't require a battery to die to happen, and we've even tried reformatting the various cards every time we use a fresh one and it hasn't made a difference. and it doesn't just happen when the clips span cards, in fact we don't even need a second card in for it to happen. While we can't reproduce the effect en cue, it's definitely happening a few times a day for us.

Anyone have any insight?


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Bala Chandran
Re: EX-1 duplicate file names
on Jul 12, 2015 at 11:14:53 pm

This used to happen to me since years and it happened again today. So I decided to google and found this thread. My EX3 file names start with (custom) EX3_####_## and EX1 names with EX1_####_##. I can't remember if it had happened in both cameras but it happens every once in a while. Apparently XDCAM browser, when copying to one final folder, appends the duplicate name with (1) and it creates a problem in sorting the files. In Premiere Pro the remedy I use is to sort the files by time and drag to the timeline. Sorting by name will mess up the order of clips.
This last job I know I did not have a battery dying on me so that suggestion is ruled out.


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