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TEST - Compare EX1 to HVR-Z7 regarding Long Gop

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richard ladkani
TEST - Compare EX1 to HVR-Z7 regarding Long Gop
on May 26, 2008 at 8:20:34 pm

Hi there

I decided to start a new thread as the other one is getting to long.

I finally uploaded about 10 clips weher everybody can see what motion problem I am talking about. It's in direct comparrison to the Z7.
Now we can all talk about what it is I am seeing here. If needed I can also upload some comparring HVX201 clips or even HDCAM footage from an F900R. But then we would get into serious download issues.

Please check this link to see EX1 to Z7

http://www.richardladkani.com/cameratest_main/cameratest/index.html

You will find about 10 shots aswell as screenshots taken from the same footage.
you will have to download the quicktimes as source to see it in its original quality and full screen.
Be prepared for some download time. Each clip is between 20 and 130mb large.

In short the problem I noticed on the EX1 but not on the Z7:

When the camera moves detail is lost. When the camera stops it's back. Especially bad on a large screen or when watched on a 2k beamer in a cinema. Where does it come from? Can it be avoided? If yes - HOW?

All the best
Richard

http://www.richardladkani.com



http://www.richardladkani.com


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Eli Hollander
Re: TEST - Compare EX1 to HVR-Z7 regarding Long Gop
on May 26, 2008 at 8:46:35 pm

Richard,

I sent you a file with my test footage, via yousendit.com (they will email you a link at your "iinfo@richardladkani.com" address. I shot the test footage at 48th and at 1000th sec shutter speeds. Tell me if you see the kind of results you got.

Eli


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richard ladkani
Re: TEST - Compare EX1 to HVR-Z7 regarding Long Gop
on May 27, 2008 at 4:11:39 pm

Hi Eli

I never received an email from yousentit.com
Sorry

http://www.richardladkani.com


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Eli Hollander
Re: TEST - Compare EX1 to HVR-Z7 regarding Long Gop
on May 27, 2008 at 4:20:18 pm

Richard,

The link is:

http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=56EE075401D9A9D9

Eli


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Ron Shook
Re: TEST - Compare EX1 to HVR-Z7 regarding Long Gop
on May 27, 2008 at 5:12:45 pm

Eli,

[Eli Hollander] "The link is:"

Dang. Do Macs open these stuffit files without paying for a program, because my PC won't. It's very frustrating to spend the time of a long download and then not be able to open the file. Compression programs like stuffit or winzip can't make much difference to the size of video file so why use 'em?



Ron Shook
Shoulder-High Eye Productions
CreativeCOW Forum Host for Discreet edit*


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Eli Hollander
Re: TEST - Compare EX1 to HVR-Z7 regarding Long Gop
on May 27, 2008 at 6:25:07 pm

Ron,

Sorry you couldn't open it (as a matter of habit, I compress files, not so much because of size, but because the resource fork doesn't always travel well...)

Here is a link to uncompressed motion test:

http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=A5B9E0CE7D6C4947

Eli


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Ron Shook
Re: TEST - Compare EX1 to HVR-Z7 regarding Long Gop
on May 27, 2008 at 6:46:23 pm

Eli,

[Eli Hollander] "Here is a link to uncompressed motion test:"

Thanks so much for tryin', but now I get the same white screen as Mick and I do with Richard's stuff with QT telling me I have to download something but not telling me what. I am developing an intense hatred for QT. Windows would at least tell me the component that I need in most cases.

Ron Shook
Shoulder-High Eye Productions
CreativeCOW Forum Host for Discreet edit*


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richard ladkani
Re: TEST - Compare EX1 to HVR-Z7 regarding Long Gop
on May 27, 2008 at 7:09:55 pm

Hi Eli

I just saw your grass. I think we found the problem. It must be the shutter. The motion blurr on these shots looks fine. Even though the pan is way too fast. I wish you had done a nice and slow pan to be absolutely sure. But still. In single frames I can see that there is no compression kicking in.
It just looks like motion blur. But is this Interlaced footage??

My guess is now that the shutter has to be manually set to 1/50 or 1/48 when in 25p mode and that the standard setting is 1/25. But I would love for someone who owns the camera to confirm this.

http://www.richardladkani.com


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Rick Diamond
Re: TEST - Compare EX1 to HVR-Z7 regarding Long Gop
on May 27, 2008 at 12:36:17 am

can't download your footage



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richard ladkani
Re: TEST - Compare EX1 to HVR-Z7 regarding Long Gop
on May 27, 2008 at 6:51:27 am

All Footage is exportetd in its original format from Final Cut Pro. You will need the latest quicktime player installed to view it. The format is 1920x1080 25p.

Hope this helps.

http://www.richardladkani.com


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Steve Connor
Re: TEST - Compare EX1 to HVR-Z7 regarding Long Gop
on May 27, 2008 at 7:34:11 am

Looks to me like the shutter on the EX is not correctly set, I believe this has been called into question on another forum also. That blurring does not happen on the footage I have.

Steve Connor
Adrenalin Television

Have you tried "Search Posts"? Enlightenment may be there.


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Alister Chapman
Re: TEST - Compare EX1 to HVR-Z7 regarding Long Gop
on May 27, 2008 at 8:35:45 am

This is a non issue. The EX1 handles motion correctly. See this clip. 2 cameras mounted together, one is an EX1 the other another HD camera that has been on the market for a couple of years and is know to produce true 25P images. Both have 1/50th shutter.

http://www.ingenioustv.com/clips/ex1-motion-test.mov

Alister Chapman



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richard ladkani
Re: TEST - Compare EX1 to HVR-Z7 regarding Long Gop
on May 27, 2008 at 4:10:30 pm

Hi there

Have you had a chance to look at my footage? Your shot is hard to analyze as you keep panning with a moving car which attracts the eye. But I admit that the blur you get looks more natural than what I get. I would like to know what you think after you see my footage and how you explain the softness that I get on every moving shot.
Thanx

http://www.richardladkani.com


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Steve Connor
Re: TEST - Compare EX1 to HVR-Z7 regarding Long Gop
on May 27, 2008 at 4:22:55 pm

I think it's being pointed out by a few people that you may not have had the shutter actually on during your shoot - that would explain it all.



Steve Connor
Adrenalin Television

Have you tried "Search Posts"? Enlightenment may be there.


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Chris Babbitt
Re: TEST - Compare EX1 to HVR-Z7 regarding Long Gop
on May 27, 2008 at 5:36:06 pm

Steve,

Can you please explain the proper use of the shutter to me, because it sure isn't very clear in the manual. Unless I need to vary the shutter speed for a particular effect, I just leave it off, assuming that the camera will set it to the appropriate speed for the format that I am shooting in. That's the way it's always worked with other cameras I have owned.Isthat not correct?



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Steve Connor
Re: TEST - Compare EX1 to HVR-Z7 regarding Long Gop
on May 27, 2008 at 5:39:56 pm

Not correct I'm afraid - the first shoot in 25p I did was on an F900 and I forgot to dial in the shutter - it looked awful. You need to set shutter manually every time.

Steve Connor
Adrenalin Television

Have you tried "Search Posts"? Enlightenment may be there.


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Chris Babbitt
Re: TEST - Compare EX1 to HVR-Z7 regarding Long Gop
on May 27, 2008 at 5:54:37 pm

Oh terrific! So, what's the point in having an off switch for the shutter?



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Steve Connor
Re: TEST - Compare EX1 to HVR-Z7 regarding Long Gop
on May 27, 2008 at 6:05:36 pm

For when you shoot interlace!!!

Steve Connor
Adrenalin Television

Have you tried "Search Posts"? Enlightenment may be there.


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Chris Babbitt
Re: TEST - Compare EX1 to HVR-Z7 regarding Long Gop
on May 27, 2008 at 6:10:39 pm

What?
Now I'm really confused.





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Alister Chapman
Re: TEST - Compare EX1 to HVR-Z7 regarding Long Gop
on May 27, 2008 at 6:32:28 pm

When you shoot interlaced the shutter is only open for 1/50th or 1/60th of a second. That is short enough in most cases to freeze the background and gives a reasonably sharp picture. When you shoot at 24P or 25P the shutter is open for twice as long at 1/25th of a second. If you are familiar with stills photography you will know that at less than 1/50th you need a tripod or you pictures will be soft due to motion causing blur.

So the answer, which is to some degree a compromise is to use the shutter set to 1/50th of a second to freeze or reduce the background blur during pans and motion. This also mimics the way most film cameras work where the film is exposed for half of the frame rate while during the other half the shutter closes and the film is moved on one frame.

This is also called a 180 degree shutter. You can use other shutter speeds depending on the amount of blur you do or do not want.



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richard ladkani
Re: TEST - Compare EX1 to HVR-Z7 regarding Long Gop
on May 27, 2008 at 6:43:44 pm

Hi Alister

Ae you 100% sure that the standard setting if you don't touch the camera in 25p mode is 1/25th????
That would be crazy as it doesn't mention it in the menu. Anybody would assume it is 1/50th as a standard. If that's the case it would also explain why the EX1 is so good in low light. It adds another f-stop by opening to 1/25th vs. 1/50th

http://www.richardladkani.com


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Chris Babbitt
Re: TEST - Compare EX1 to HVR-Z7 regarding Long Gop
on May 27, 2008 at 6:45:55 pm

OK, so let's say I'm shooting at 1080/30p with the shutter turned off. What shutter speed is the camera shooting at?



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Alister Chapman
Re: TEST - Compare EX1 to HVR-Z7 regarding Long Gop
on May 27, 2008 at 7:50:20 pm

If you shoot at 30p the shutter will be 1/30th and at 25p it will be 1/25th while at 60i it will be 1/60th and at 50i it will be 1/50th.

This is normal on most video cameras.

Unless you manually set the shutter to something else.



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Chris Babbitt
Re: TEST - Compare EX1 to HVR-Z7 regarding Long Gop
on May 27, 2008 at 8:29:25 pm

So, is this what it's supposed to be set at, or should it be 60 fps for shooting in 30p?



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Don Greening
Re: TEST - Compare EX1 to HVR-Z7 regarding Long Gop
on May 28, 2008 at 1:36:26 am

[Chris Babbitt] "So, is this what it's supposed to be set at, or should it be 60 fps for shooting in 30p?"

The minimum setting for shooting 30p or 60i is 1/60th of a second. Shooting 25p or 50i should have a minimum shutter speed of 1/50th of a sec.

- Don



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Chris Babbitt
Re: TEST - Compare EX1 to HVR-Z7 regarding Long Gop
on May 28, 2008 at 2:30:26 am

So, if I'm shooting at 30p with the shutter speed turned off, the camera sets the shutter speed to 1/30, but it should be 1/60. Is this bad? Also, does this mean that if I change it to 1/60, will I require twice as much light? As you can tell, I really don't have a grasp on this issue.



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Don Greening
Re: TEST - Compare EX1 to HVR-Z7 regarding Long Gop
on May 28, 2008 at 2:48:28 am

[Chris Babbitt] "So, if I'm shooting at 30p with the shutter speed turned off, the camera sets the shutter speed to 1/30, but it should be 1/60."


Hi Chris.

However it works, don't leave anything to chance. I always check to make sure the shutter speed is what I want before I ever press the record button. For a test, try a pan at 1/60th and then another one at 1/30th. You'll see a big difference in motion stutter and blur. Yes, you'll need more light at 1/60th than at 1/30th shutter speed. You'll also be able to see that difference each time you switch back and forth between the 2 settings. I don't know if 1/60th takes twice as much light as 1/30th does but you've got the right idea.

Keep in mind that even with a shutter speed of 1/60th shutter and shooting 30p with the EX it still has a brighter picture than a PD170 shooting 1/60th shutter shooting 60i. which is really quite amazing when you think about it, because it takes more light to shoot progressive than it does to shoot interlaced.

- Don




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Chris Babbitt
Re: TEST - Compare EX1 to HVR-Z7 regarding Long Gop
on May 28, 2008 at 3:20:50 am

Thanks for clearing that up. Don.



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richard ladkani
Re: TEST - Compare EX1 to HVR-Z7 regarding Long Gop
on May 27, 2008 at 6:38:43 pm

Hi

I checked with the rental house. My shutter was indeed off on the switch below the lens. But my Shutter in the menu was set to whatever it sets to when it's shooting 25p. Before use the camera was reset to factury setting and then switched to 1080/25p in HQ/35mbs

As I don't own the camera could somebody please tell me what the standard shutter is in the menu. In interlaced mode it is 1/100 after factury reset as a standard setting which is actually quite high. What is the standard speed in 25p mode?

Maybe the shutter is the problem. But I am quite shure it was set to 1/50th

Thanx

Richard

http://www.richardladkani.com


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Steve Connor
Re: TEST - Compare EX1 to HVR-Z7 regarding Long Gop
on May 27, 2008 at 7:08:13 pm

Simple I'm afraid - doesn't matter what the menu setting is or what the factory default is, without that shutter switch on you didn't have 1/50th in at all - as was suspected.

Glad your rental house could give you that information so we could sort this one out!

Steve Connor
Adrenalin Television

Have you tried "Search Posts"? Enlightenment may be there.


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richard ladkani
Re: TEST - Compare EX1 to HVR-Z7 regarding Long Gop
on May 27, 2008 at 7:13:01 pm

I am not convinced quite yet. Usually, on many cameras when the shutter switch is off the standard menu setting is still 1/50. Can you confirm that the in the menu it says 1/25 in 25p mode? In interlaced mode the standard is 1/100. So why would it be 1/25 in 25p and not 1/50??

http://www.richardladkani.com


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Steve Connor
Re: TEST - Compare EX1 to HVR-Z7 regarding Long Gop
on May 27, 2008 at 7:16:08 pm

Sorry Richard it is correct, you have to switch in 1/50th it doesn't happen automatically, just like every other Professional HD camera.

Steve Connor
Adrenalin Television

Have you tried "Search Posts"? Enlightenment may be there.


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richard ladkani
Re: TEST - Compare EX1 to HVR-Z7 regarding Long Gop
on May 27, 2008 at 7:23:41 pm

I will do some more tests tomorrow to be absolutely sure. But if this is true than I will rest my case and thank you all for helping me solve this issue.
In the end it might buy this camera instead of the Z7 next week. The sharpness, latitude and slowmo option is really amazing.

Thanks again
Richard

http://www.richardladkani.com


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Rafael Amador
Re: TEST - Compare EX1 to HVR-Z7 regarding Long Gop
on May 28, 2008 at 12:46:34 pm

Progressive must have the half of the Shutter speed of Interlaced. Thats why normally Progressive shows more motion blur than interlaced. Same happens with film.
How it works in EX-1? Enigma.
The thing that always make me wander is: Why the default manual Shutter speed is 1/100?
In 1080i50, I have no 1/50 option. Neither in 720p50.
Must be the Shutter OFF default speed. Wrong?


Mac OX 10.5.2-FC 6.02-QT 7.4.1
G5 2x2Gh 4GbRAM-BlackMagic Extreme
PMBP 17"Core2Duo 4GbRAM-AJA ioHD
JVC DTV-17"
SONY EX-1 . SONY PD170
..and always a big mess on top of the table.


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richard ladkani
Re: TEST - Compare EX1 to HVR-Z7 regarding Long Gop
on May 28, 2008 at 5:53:50 pm

Hi there

My final conclusion:

I did some more tests today and I can now confirm what some of you have said all along. The shutter is 1/25th when OFF in 25p mode. It causes intense motion blur, makes the image soft on movements and looks bad when used for handheld camera. The 1/25th shutter also gives the camera an extra stop of light. When turned to 1/50 the camera is just about as good in low-light as the new HVX201AE. Maybe a bit better.

The best solution for 25p was turning the shutter to 1/50 and to keep Steady Shot ON during handheld shots and to turn it OFF for pans during tripod moves. If it's left ON it can cause some strange aftermove once you have come to a full stop. When OFF in handheld moves it makes the image very shaky and makes you kind of nervous.

There are NO LonGop issues with this camera. It performs just as well as the HVR-Z7 on movement.

Sorry about all the back and forth on this but I think some of us have learned a lot about this camera during all these discussions.

Best wishes and see you soon on the next topic.
Richard

http://www.richardladkani.com


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Don Greening
Re: TEST - Compare EX1 to HVR-Z7 regarding Long Gop
on May 28, 2008 at 6:20:48 pm

[richard ladkani] " If it's left ON it can cause some strange aftermove once you have come to a full stop."

This is because the OIS on just about all cameras will try to correct the end of a pan or tilt because of the movement. This is normal. When shooting with a tripod deactivate the camera's OIS function. Shooting with OIS turned off will also save battery power.

- Don



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Chris Babbitt
Re: TEST - Compare EX1 to HVR-Z7 regarding Long Gop
on May 28, 2008 at 6:31:19 pm

So, I guess we can assume that Alister was right when he said that the default is also 1/30 at 30p and 1/60 at 60i. So, if I'm shooting at 30p, I should probably change the shutter to 1/60, but at 60i, I could leave it at 1/60 and get acceptable results.



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Paul Zwicker
Re: TEST - Compare EX1 to HVR-Z7 regarding Long Gop
on Jun 9, 2008 at 6:24:16 pm

You guys have no idea how hard it is to read this thread and choose a camera (under $10,000) to purchace.

I am testing the EX1 this week. I want to be sure I can capture clean moving video. I have a client who is nervous that this may not be the correct camera to shoot children on playsets swinging away.
Last time we shot on a F900 and slo-mo was great when captured @30fps.
Now a post house the client may use has expressed concern.

So. Perhaps I should go back to my original camera choice (JVC 200) and shoot in 720 on HDV and harddrive backup. Or it may be that shooting the EX1 in 720p @60fps will look just dandy.

Argggggh.

BTW. Thank you all for you insights here. It is remarkable how information is shared.

Paul



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john sharaf
Re: TEST - Compare EX1 to HVR-Z7 regarding Long Gop
on Jun 9, 2008 at 7:24:21 pm

Paul,

I believe you are correct in being suspicious of long GOP recording formats vis a vis strong movement. Perhaps you should consider a 720 60p solution like Varicam or any of the P2 Panasonic cameras for this project (swingset), which will offer you the best slomo capabilities short of a dedicated slomo camera.

JS





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richard ladkani
Re: TEST - Compare EX1 to HVR-Z7 regarding Long Gop
on Jun 9, 2008 at 7:39:41 pm

Hi

I did a lot of tests with all Panasonic and Sony Cameras and the EX1 has the best slowmotion to offer. It's clean sharp and beautiful to watch. The image quality is almost that of the F900R and much better than the HVX201 which I also tested. It feels more like 75f/s than 60frames.
The Long Gop is of no concern anymore. The reason it came up in this thread was because I forgot to turn the Shutter ON on my first test. When OFF the image looks terribly smeary and soft. I thought it was a Long Gop problem but it wasn't. When ON it looks great and sharp. The usual setup should be 1/50 but if you have very fast moving objects you might try 1/100. Just be careful when shooting people. They can look overly sharp and unnatural if you go above 1/50th.
Good luck
Richard

http://www.richardladkani.com


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Michael Palmer
Re: TEST - Compare EX1 to HVR-Z7 regarding Long Gop
on Jun 9, 2008 at 7:30:12 pm

Paul
you won't have any issues with any of the the formats, however if you give the post house 720 60p you won't have nothing to worry about.

Good Luck
Michael Palmer


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Michael Palmer
Re: TEST - Compare EX1 to HVR-Z7 regarding Long Gop
on Jun 9, 2008 at 7:31:25 pm

Paul
you won't have any issues with any of the the formats using the EX1, however if you give the post house 720 60p you won't have nothing to worry about.

Good Luck
Michael Palmer


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Paul Zwicker
Re: TEST - Compare EX1 to HVR-Z7 regarding Long Gop
on Jun 10, 2008 at 1:19:39 am

Hey Guys,

Thanks for your input.

I'll give the EX1 a test drive in several modes this week.

It's just been a long 2 months researching these cameras that are in my price range.

I could give up on this less expensive camera that I was going to pair up with the Letus Extreme and some Nikons. Then I would have a little cash for a 2/3" chip camera. But I'd rather has a small "travel" camera and rent the big guys.

Love this forum-you guys are great.

When I get my gear you'll see me posting more often.

Paul





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