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Extreme Lighting Conditions

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Luc Majno
Extreme Lighting Conditions
on Mar 30, 2008 at 2:02:15 am


Hello from eastern Canada!
I need help with my new XDCAM EX1 from Sony... Everything is fine until I go out at 11:00 in the morning to film in bright daylight and to film a snowscape... In filming snow-covered areas, I am getting the High Light warning, and I already have the ND2 filter on. As I have only had the camera for a few weeks now, I have not experimented at all with extreme conditions. I would love some pointers for this problem, as one person says KNEE adjustment, and another says BLACK GAMMA adjustment, and still another says WHITE adjustment... I have tried them all, but with little luck and a lot of image quality degredation.

Thanks for listening.

LM


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Don Greening
Re: Extreme Lighting Conditions
on Mar 30, 2008 at 6:45:43 am

[Luc Majno] "as one person says KNEE adjustment, and another says BLACK GAMMA adjustment, and still another says WHITE adjustment... I have tried them all, but with little luck and a lot of image quality degredation. "

This won't help because these settings are for fine adjustment of your picture and not specifically to decrease the amount of light coming into the camera.

1) Start increasing your shutter speed until the highlights are under control. The higher the shutter speed the less light will be hitting the imagers.

2) You can also shoot in progressive instead of interlaced. Shooting progressive requires more light to get a properly exposed picture.

3) Set the picture gain at -3 instead of shooting at 0 gain.

4) Buy a screw-on neutral density filter for the front of your lens to be used along with the in camera ND2 setting for really bright snow conditions. Filter size is 77 mm.

- Don



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Rafael Amador
Re: Extreme Lighting Conditions
on Mar 30, 2008 at 9:59:52 am

I guess that in an open day in Canada, in the middle of the snow can have a lot of light.
I would start with the Don Suggestion:Some more ND filters.
[Don Greening] "Buy a screw-on neutral density filter for the front of your lens to be used along with the in camera ND2 setting for really bright snow conditions. Filter size is 77 mm. "
Also I would try with a Polraizer Circular filter. Apart of reducing the light without affecting the colors I think can work great in the snow giving you some spectacular deep blue skies. .

[Don Greening] "3) Set the picture gain at -3 instead of shooting at 0 gain.
"

But with this I do not agree, Don. Increase the gain is just like opening the iris.



Mac OX 10.5.2-FC 6.02-QT 7.4.1
G5 2x2Gh 4GbRAM-BlackMagic Extreme
PMBP 17"Core2Duo 4GbRAM-AJA ioHD
JVC DTV-17"
SONY EX-1 . SONY PD170
..and always a big mess on top of the table.


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Craig Seeman
Re: Extreme Lighting Conditions
on Mar 30, 2008 at 12:00:31 pm

-3 is DECREASING the gain. I start with -3 Gain as is recommended by many professional shooters.

The Cine Gamma Curves can also compress the highlights to prevent loss of detail in peaks. Try CG4 for example.



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Luc Majno
Re: Extreme Lighting Conditions
on Mar 30, 2008 at 12:04:56 pm

Thanks for this! I will keep you people posted! This is a great way to get help! A+

LM



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Rafael Amador
Re: Extreme Lighting Conditions
on Mar 30, 2008 at 4:09:41 pm

Sorry Craig, I had no idea that was possible.
Anyway there are a lot of interesting information in this thread.
Now is 1 AM but tomorrow I have to read again Randy's post.


Mac OX 10.5.2-FC 6.02-QT 7.4.1
G5 2x2Gh 4GbRAM-BlackMagic Extreme
PMBP 17"Core2Duo 4GbRAM-AJA ioHD
JVC DTV-17"
SONY EX-1 . SONY PD170
..and always a big mess on top of the table.


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Luc Majno
Re: Extreme Lighting Conditions
on Mar 30, 2008 at 12:03:23 pm

Thanks for the quick reply! I didn't expect any answers so soon! I am a new EX1 owner and did not want to start changing all kinds of settings without asking around first.

I'll get back to you. Today is (another) BRIGHT AND SUNNY day... :)

LM



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Chris Babbitt
Re: Extreme Lighting Conditions
on Mar 30, 2008 at 3:03:56 pm

That's interesting, Don. I didn't know that about Progressive mode. How much difference?



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Don Greening
Re: Extreme Lighting Conditions
on Mar 30, 2008 at 8:32:07 pm

[Chris Babbitt] "How much difference?"

I'd like to say about half a stop but I don't think it's quite that much. Check it out for yourself though. Toggle between Interlace and progressive mode in the menu and the picture will alternately lighten and darken by a small amount.

- Don


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randy Strome
Re: Extreme Lighting Conditions
on Mar 30, 2008 at 3:34:13 pm

I shoot in bright (and extremely variable) conditions all of the time with a huge Dynamic range.

Some suggestions:

-Set up a PP based on Cine1

-If you adjust Black (which is your master black) try -4. The default is +4, so -4 will pull black to a true zero.

-If you are still unable to fit the scene, and do not want to lose either end, adjust Gamma (which should really be called master white or white level) down (I have one PP set up as -5 and use it often).

-Use a Polarizer and if needed additional ND filters up front to control exposure.






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Luc Majno
Re: Extreme Lighting Conditions
on Mar 30, 2008 at 4:24:04 pm

Thanks again for all the help.



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Kevin Jones
Re: Extreme Lighting Conditions
on Mar 30, 2008 at 5:44:23 pm

I agree with Craig. Using a -3 gain makes the image a bit darker and minimizes any video noise.

Here is a good general purpose Picture Profile that I am using for everything:

Picture Profile 01

Matrix ...............on
Select................hisat
Level..................0
Phase.................-5
R-G...................75
R-B...................0
G-R...................-18
G-B...................-32
B-R...................-27
B-G...................13
Color Correction..............off
White.............................off
Detail.............................on
Detail Level.....................0
Detail Freq......................0
Skintone.........................off
Knee..............................on
Auto knee......................on
Point.............................90
Slope............................0
Knee SAT level...............50
Gamma Level..............-8
Gamma Select.............CINE1
Black..........................-6


2.5GHz Quad-core PowerPC G5
Final Cut Studio 2


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randy Strome
Re: Extreme Lighting Conditions
on Mar 30, 2008 at 6:29:57 pm

We are using pretty similar settings, with the exceptions of detail (I would suggest off, as you can selectively fine tune this better in post if needed) and I have set black to -4 (which sets the curve to map a scene black to 0 IRE). Black can alwas bee deepened with levels in post. You may want to set up a few PP's based on these setting at a variety of Gamma settings (0, -3, -5, etc).


I have also been using those color settings (credit due to Bill Ravens).



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randy Strome
Re: Extreme Lighting Conditions
on Mar 30, 2008 at 7:04:49 pm

EDIT

The above should have read:


You may want to set up a few PP's based on these setting at a variety of Gamma settings (0, +3, +5, etc).




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randy Strome
Re: Extreme Lighting Conditions
on Mar 30, 2008 at 7:06:46 pm

****EDIT****

I had originally written in the gammas above at negative rather than positive values, but actually, I am suggesting that you try positive values such as +5 (which is what my favorite preset for bright high DR scenes is). A postive value in Gamma LOWERS the white point, which is what you are after. A negative value such as the -8 you had found elsewhere will only serve to push your whites further out of range.



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Luc Majno
Re: Extreme Lighting Conditions
on Mar 30, 2008 at 7:14:02 pm

THANK YOU Randi for the explanation. What a treat to have 'experience at the table! :o
LM



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Vladimir Lozinski
Re: Extreme Lighting Conditions
on Jun 7, 2008 at 9:49:14 am

Great suggestions. I will try a few out myself.
Also.
In snow and glare I would recommend a polarizing filter. It deals with the problem before it get into the camera.

V.L.





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Rafael Amador
Re: Extreme Lighting Conditions
on Jun 7, 2008 at 1:32:13 pm

Yes beautiful pictures with the PL. But you must be careful. I've read that you must avoid any kind of camera movement with the PL.

Mac OX 10.5.2-FC 6.02-QT 7.4.1
G5 2x2Gh 4GbRAM-BlackMagic Extreme
PMBP 17"Core2Duo 4GbRAM-AJA ioHD
JVC DTV-17"
SONY EX-1 . SONY PD170
..and always a big mess on top of the table.


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