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EX1 slow motion best settings, Plese advise

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Adrian Allen
EX1 slow motion best settings, Plese advise
on Mar 22, 2008 at 9:12:08 pm

Hello,
I recently purchased the EX1, always loved the Pan HVX200 for its slow motion capabilities. For some reason I feel that the slow motion on the Ex1 is not as smooth as the HVX200. It has a stuttery look and field. (I'm sure the 24p contributed to it)
My settings were as follows.

Frame Rate: 60i
Shutter: 1000 ( I was told making the shutter higher would accomplish smoother motion)
Format: 720X24p

Can anyone Recommend the best setting to accomplish this smooth look?
Also can you recommend the best setting to shoot at 1920X1080
HQ for independent shorts and documentaries.

My Best

creative minds think alike!


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Craig Seeman
Re: EX1 slow motion best settings, Plese advise
on Mar 22, 2008 at 9:58:52 pm

[Adrian Allen] "Shutter: 1000 ( I was told making the shutter higher would accomplish smoother motion) "

Opposite.
That's why what you're seeing is stuttery. You probably could have shot 1/120 and maybe even 1/60 to really smooth it at 60fps.

High shutter speed gives you that "Saving Private Ryan" stuttering effect.





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Marco Solorio
Re: EX1 slow motion best settings, Plese advise
on Mar 22, 2008 at 10:01:16 pm

[Adrian Allen] "Frame Rate: 60i"

You need to shoot in 60p to get the best results. Here's my workflow...

Shoot 720p60
Transcode to codec of choice
Conform 720p60 to 720p24 (wish the native XD footage could conform in Cinema Tools)
Import into NLE of choice
Slow motion smooth as silk.

In short, don't bring your 720p60 footage into your NLE and apply a slow-motion filter on it... wont work the way you intend to.

Don't forget you can also shoot in 1080p30 and conform to 1080p24. Not as much of a slow motion reduction, but still cool nonetheless.

Marco Solorio | CreativeCow Host | OneRiver Media | Codec Resource Site | Cinesoft | Media Batch



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ken hon
Re: EX1 slow motion best settings, Plese advise
on Mar 23, 2008 at 3:40:50 am

Aloha,

There is also a way to shoot 720 60P as slo mo in camera. Select your 720 frame rate that you want to edit in either 24 or 30P. Then in S+Q motion choose 60 frames. This will automatically film at half speed. That is it will film at 60P but download and playback at 30P. You can get it a bit slower using 24P. This is nice as you can see the effect on your viewfinder while you are filming.

Aloha,

Ken




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Craig Seeman
Re: EX1 slow motion best settings, Plese advise
on Mar 23, 2008 at 4:35:25 am



[ken hon] " a way to shoot 720 60P as slo mo in camera. Select your 720 frame rate that you want to edit in either 24 or 30P. Then in S+Q motion choose 60 frames."

And that method should yield better quality then simply shooting 720p60 time base. It's what I do to shoot slo-mo. The actual data rate during record may well be over 70mbps. The reason is that the resultant file is probably targeted to playback at 35mbps. Whereas if you shot at 720p60 at 35mbps and slowed it down 50% you'll also have less original data per second.





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Marco Solorio
Re: EX1 slow motion best settings, Plese advise
on Mar 23, 2008 at 10:20:16 am

[Craig Seeman] "The reason is that the resultant file is probably targeted to playback at 35mbps. Whereas if you shot at 720p60 at 35mbps and slowed it down 50% you'll also have less original data per second."

I haven't actually tested this yet but am curious to. Does 10 seconds of 720p60 have a smaller file size than 10 seconds of 720p24 S+Q 60? If the file size IS bigger (thus creating a higher quality clip due to more I-frames) then I'll definitely shoot this way from now on for any slo-mo. For some reason I thought S+Q mode was merely a playback "flag", sort of like a conform.

Marco Solorio | CreativeCow Host | OneRiver Media | Codec Resource Site | Cinesoft | Media Batch



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Craig Seeman
Re: EX1 slow motion best settings, Plese advise
on Mar 23, 2008 at 2:32:40 pm

[Marco Solorio] " Does 10 seconds of 720p60 have a smaller file size than 10 seconds of 720p24 S+Q 60?"

Keep in mind that what one is actually measuring is 10 seconds of 720p60 vs what becomes 25 seconds playback of a 10 second recording of 720p24 recorded at p60. I'd strongly suspect that the 720p24/p60 file would be larger.

In other words what one is comparing is 10 seconds of recording time. 10 seconds of 24/60 is 25 seconds of playback @ 35mbps. 10 seconds of 60 at 60fps is 35mbps so that slowed down in timeline is 13.6mbps. That data rate during recording of 24/60 is probably 87.5mbps . . .

For the math challenged what I'm saying is that 24/60 is probably recorded at 87.5mbps and slowed to 24fps which is 35mbps.

Whereas "straight" 720p60 recording is already recorded at 35mpbs so that slowing that down to 24 would be 13.6mbps.

which is probably one of the reasons the SxS cards by Sony (and Sandisk when they happen) are different than other Express cards. The sustained data rate plus headroom to perform overcrank is fairly high.





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Ron Shook
Re: EX1 slow motion best settings, Plese advise
on Mar 23, 2008 at 8:10:50 pm

Craig,

[Craig Seeman] "I'd strongly suspect that the 720p24/p60 file would be larger."

That ought be easy enough to check rather than just suspecting? Do 10 seconds each way shooting at anything that moves in some detail and compare the files.
Doesn't matter what it is or what it looks like. Shoot your TV.

Ron Shook
Shoulder-High Eye Productions
CreativeCOW Forum Host for Discreet edit*


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Rafael Amador
Re: EX1 slow motion best settings, Plese advise
on Mar 25, 2008 at 9:47:49 am

Very easy to test it in the very camera. Shoot 720 24fps/60 and play the clip in the camera. The clip will play almost three times longer making a really smooth slowmo.

Mac OX 10.5.2-FC 6.02-QT 7.4.1
G5 2x2Gh 4GbRAM-BlackMagic Extreme
PMBP 17"Core2Duo 4GbRAM-AJA ioHD
JVC DTV-17"
SONY EX-1 . SONY PD170
..and always a big mess on top of the table.


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Bruno Fraga
Re: EX1 slow motion best settings, Plese advise
on Mar 26, 2008 at 12:49:28 am

Sorry about my fool doubt but what softwares that conform files?

Thanks!


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Marco Solorio
Re: EX1 slow motion best settings, Plese advise
on Apr 6, 2008 at 12:17:49 am

[Bruno Fraga] "Sorry about my fool doubt but what softwares that conform files?"

Cinema Tools by Apple.

http://www.apple.com/finalcutstudio/finalcutpro/cinematools.html

Marco Solorio | CreativeCow Host | OneRiver Media | Codec Resource Site | Cinesoft | Media Batch



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Marco Solorio
Re: EX1 slow motion best settings, Plese advise
on Apr 6, 2008 at 12:16:15 am

Just to confirm that after running some tests a week or two ago on this subject, I did in fact get much larger files running 720p24 S+Q 60 FPS than running 720p60. Makes sense now, but for some reason, I thought the difference between the two was merely a flagging tag. Not at all so. So yeah, my slo-mo workflow is now officially changed! ;-) Luckily I hadn't used the old workflow in a production environment! Gotta love new gear! =)

Besides, the immediate real-time slo-mo playback is very nice.

Marco Solorio | CreativeCow Host | OneRiver Media | Codec Resource Site | Cinesoft | Media Batch



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Bruno Fraga
Re: EX1 slow motion best settings, Plese advise
on Apr 6, 2008 at 4:52:10 pm

I tried to conform 720/60p in Cinema Tools but it didn't work, it created a folder but not the files, somebody could tell me the way to do that, please?

My english is not good and I couldn't understand if the better way is 720/60p or 720/30p/24p with slow mo.

Thank you very much!



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Marco Solorio
Re: EX1 slow motion best settings, Plese advise
on Apr 6, 2008 at 6:17:56 pm

[Bruno Fraga] "I tried to conform 720/60p in Cinema Tools but it didn't work, it created a folder but not the files, somebody could tell me the way to do that, please?"

Cinema Tools cannot conform (720p60) EX footage because of the long GOP structure; conforming it to a different frame-rate would mess up the i-frame cadence. If you need to conform 720p60 EX footage, you must first transcode the footage to another codec, like Uncompressed, ProRes, etc. Then you'll be able to conform it. But as mentioned, shooting in 720p24 at S+Q 60 FPS is the ideal method, not just for better quality, but for instant playback of slo-mo footage.

Marco Solorio | CreativeCow Host | OneRiver Media | Codec Resource Site | Cinesoft | Media Batch



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Bruno Fraga
Re: EX1 slow motion best settings, Plese advise
on Apr 6, 2008 at 11:55:00 pm

Hi Marco, thanks for suporting me.
I noticed that in 720/24p mode with or without slow mo has (I don't know how to say exactly in english) a flicker, something not like a realy progressive 24fps cinema view, its better then HVR series like Z1 and V1, but honestly I don't like but I got surprised what I saw on TV, a record on TV show with better flicker and the camcorder was HVR-Z1 (its like a false 24p, pull-down conversion, doesn't it?) but just on TV cause when I record with Z1 and play on my TV I see that horrible flicker per exemple a pan in the corner of the wall, I see like a vertical repetition (or ghost).
Do you know what I mean?
(sorry about my english)

Thanks again for the help.



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Rafael Amador
Re: EX1 slow motion best settings, Plese advise
on Apr 12, 2008 at 12:17:15 pm

[Marco Solorio] "much larger files running 720p24 S+Q 60 FPS than running 720p60. Makes sense now, but for some reason, I thought the difference between the two was merely a flagging tag."
When shooting 720p24/60:
- We are recording some 100Mbps.
- We are recording 60fps but lying a 24 fps TC.
When playing 720p24/60:
- The 60fps are read at 24 fps.
- So the 100 Mbps that we have recorded are played at 35Mbps.
We have to forget about the old concept of TC as a "real time'' generated signal.
The trick works great and the slowmo looks wonderful.




Mac OX 10.5.2-FC 6.02-QT 7.4.1
G5 2x2Gh 4GbRAM-BlackMagic Extreme
PMBP 17"Core2Duo 4GbRAM-AJA ioHD
JVC DTV-17"
SONY EX-1 . SONY PD170
..and always a big mess on top of the table.


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Erika Cervantes
Re: EX1 slow motion best settings, Plese advise
on Jan 3, 2009 at 4:41:38 am

Does anyone have any experience cutting together 1080/24p and 720/24p/60 fps footage in Final Cut Pro?

Shooting a music video this weekend on an EX-1 with some slo-mo material, have tested a couple of things and the 720/24p/60fps method described here seems to look best. Any advice on how this would affect workflow/sequence settings?

Thanks!


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John Lovell
Re: EX1 slow motion best settings, Plese advise
on Sep 16, 2009 at 4:35:51 pm

I have a master sequence with ex-1 720p24 and 720p60 footage and I'd like an opinion on that as well!


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John Lovell
Re: EX1 slow motion best settings, Plese advise
on Sep 16, 2009 at 4:46:42 pm

I have a master sequence with ex-1 720p24 and 720p60 footage and I'd like an opinion on that as well!


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